Kelly photo 1 enhanced - graphic

[John Bennett]

Hi Mrs B,

Catherine Eddowes went by the name of "Kate Kelly" on occasion. The fact that the final sentence of the preceding paragraph refers to the "Mitre Square murder" seems to point in that direction.

Yes, indeed.

On the next page the author says that 'Kelly' was released from police custody at 1.00am so he's obviously referring to Eddowes under her self-given alias.

Needless to say, I can't see a reference to writing based around the real Kelly murder (not on this page anyhow). I've perused this document before and despite being a fascinating curio from the very time of the crimes themselves, is full of 'oddities' (to put it politely).

[Mrs.Bucket]

Good point Sam. It does seem the writer is refering to Eddowes as Kelly (in some instances Kelley), the message is completely different from the records. Stating this was the fourth murder and he would turn himself in after 16 is completely different from the "Juwes" message.

[Suzi]

Great to see those pics 'in situ ' Jon- I'm tantalised to know where the rest of that album went.....

Suz x

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mrs B,

Catherine Eddowes went by the name of "Kate Kelly" on occasion. The fact that the final sentence of the preceding paragraph refers to the "Mitre Square murder" seems to point in that direction.

[Mrs.Bucket]

The Eddows graffiti was the one that was about the "Juwes." This writer states an all together different message for graffiti related to Kelly.

The Horrors of Whitechapel is available in full-text through the Casebook media files.

You can see the page I'm referencing below:

[John Bennett]

I believe the possibility of a written message has been pondered before...
Interestingly, in reviewing the Horrors of Whitechapel written in Dec. 1888, the writer stated, "Having butchered and mutilated the Kelly woman, he walked a dozen blocks from the scene, when he threw away the piece of the victim's apron, and stopped to write a message on the wall. He had provided himself with a piece of chalk for this purpose, as was the case in the Chapman affair, when he scribbled on the shutter that this made four, and that when he had killed sixteen he would surrender himself to the police."

Your Dec.1888 author here clearly has his victims mixed up and is describing events after the Eddowes murder (apron, writing).

I believe the Hanbury Street shutter story appeared in the press at the time, though I'm not sure if it was a shutter that was referred to.

Where did you get this info, by the way?

[Mrs.Bucket]

I believe the possibility of a written message has been pondered before...
Interestingly, in reviewing the Horrors of Whitechapel written in Dec. 1888, the writer stated, "Having butchered and mutilated the Kelly woman, he walked a dozen blocks from the scene, when he threw away the piece of the victim's apron, and stopped to write a message on the wall. He had provided himself with a piece of chalk for this purpose, as was the case in the Chapman affair, when he scribbled on the shutter that this made four, and that when he had killed sixteen he would surrender himself to the police." This is the only reference to this I have come across thus far. Should we surmise the writer made this up or have I just not crossed another source of this information yet? We would seem to question it saying Kelly made four, but if the killer didn't feel he fulfilled his wishes in killing Elizabeth Stride, as was likely since he sought out Catherine Eddows, he may have discounted stride from his own count all together.

[Sam Flynn]

The wall at the side of Kellys bed appears to have been partially cleaned....

... you mean it was cleaner in parts than in others, Stephen. That partition was filthy even before Mary's blood was shed upon it. There'd have been a goodly build-up of grime, soot, mould and goodness knows what else on it, I shouldn't wonder.

Were the police erasing a blood scrawled message?

If so, it was bloody huge - the "cleaned" patches extend almost the length of the bed, and three-quarters of the way to the ceiling. The partition was either patched unevenly with grime, as I suggested, or we're looking for a very tall killer with very long arms. 'Ere, wait a minute... !

[protohistorian]

Jonathan, I have now found my original photographs. The '8-cornered MJK3 reproduction' came from me and was taken by me. The photographs were removed from the old album page at the PRO and remounted in pages by 'corner slits', and given numbers, by the PRO. The numbers have no relevance other than PRO references.

Het, wait a minute...sniff...sniff...you don't smell like a newbie....IMPOSTER!!!!!

[protohistorian]

... or, more likely still, a combination of fleshly artifacts, fluids and shadows that coalesce in the imagination as a single, solid object. A bit like the "Face on Mars", to cite a familiar example.

I suspect your right Sam. Theres a cognitive psych test with two sets of dots on different sides of the paper and subjects are asked which sets are random . The majority ( unsure of #) select the side of the paper where the dots are euidistant from each other. The mind at a subconcious level is equating equidistance with randomness. The human mind just loves to find patterns. Kive strong Dave

[Stephen]

Kellys wall

The wall at the side of Kellys bed appears to have been partially cleaned....were the police erasing a blood scrawled message?

[Stewart P Evans]

Photographs

Jonathan, I have now found my original photographs. The '8-cornered MJK3 reproduction' came from me and was taken by me. The photographs were removed from the old album page at the PRO and remounted in pages by 'corner slits', and given numbers, by the PRO. The numbers have no relevance other than PRO references.

[jmenges]

So I have spent the last week dilligently looking over MJK1 and MJK3 (side note, why do we call it 3 when there's a 4 written on it?) virtually negelecting all other responsibilities.

Just for curiosity, here is how MJK2 & MJK 3 appeared when they were received by Scotland Yard in 1988. Note that the tear that appears in MJK 2 went through the entire album. Which, if the information I've heard is correct, means that this album page was handled and damaged by a certain Ripper researcher before the photos were removed from this album page.



I'm still trying to track down the origin of the #4 on the image on in Casebook's photo archive. I have a good idea of where the 8-cornered MJK3 reproduction came from, but am unsure of the origin of the numbering.

JM

[Mrs.Bucket]

Thanks JM. This does show the difference between MJK1 and 2, as two appears to be a wider shot. But it doesn't change my questions about the public's knowledge of the crime scene and the metro and city dept's forthcomingness about the scenes.

Who owned copies, and why were they first published in France? If they were published in France, how likely was it still that the public was aware of this crime scene as we know it from the photos?

[jmenges]

Various prints of the MJK photographs

Photograph of Mary Kelly from André Lamoureux De l'Éventration au point de vue médico‑légal (1894)


Photograph of Mary Kelly from Alexandre Lacassagne Vacher l'Eventreur et les crimes sadiques (1899)


MJK 1 (discovered by Don Rumbelow in the City of London Police photographic department 1967)


MJK 2 (returned to Scotland Yard in 1988)


MJK 3 (returned with MJK2 to Scotland Yard in 1988)


I hope this makes it a bit clearer, as I sense some confusion, Mrs. Bucket!

JM