Millers Court - the demolition picture

[Celesta]

Regards the door, again. If that door was usable, how easy would it be for someone to slip out into the dark passage, without being seen by anyone at the top of the passage. Or to slip into the door. A figure in dark clothng might not be spotted.

[Stephen Thomas]

The door on the passage side of number 26 is intriguing. The front of this building was unoccupied, wasn't it? I wonder if this door was for the people upstairs, except Prater of course.

Hi Celesta (and John)

There was no door into #26, halfway down the passage.

The Goads Map is wrong on this one.

There was a door but it was much further back and it was indeed for the use of people inhabiting the upper floors of #26, the front ground floor being used at the time as a storage area for costermonger's barrows and referred to as 'The Shed' which Mrs Prater clearly stated that she lived directly above, placing her overlooking Dorset Street and Crossingham's Lodging House Light that got turned off at 3AM. The door to the upper floors of #26 was just behind the wooden partition that can be seen on the Kelly corpse photo. As you ascended the stair behind it, Kelly's room was on the left, behind the wooden partition and the main back structural wall of #26 was on the right. At the top of the stairs was a small landing, to the left of which was the room directly above Kelly's room, the scene of a family murder some years later but in 1888 according to a press report occupied by a couple who slept soundly through the night of the murder. To the right at the top of the stairs was a room used as a store room that led to the stairwell to the upper floors of the house and the room at the front of the house overlooking Dorset Street that Mrs Prater on two occasions said she occupied.

[Chris Scott]

With regard to the door, the following might be of use:
1) A contemporary description of Millers Court
2 and 3 - from contemprary sketches - one shows the door but the other does not
4) The door as depicted on the Goads map

[perrymason]

Hi Celesta (and John)

There was no door into #26, halfway down the passage.

The Goads Map is wrong on this one.

There was a door but it was much further back and it was indeed for the use of people inhabiting the upper floors of #26, the front ground floor being used at the time as a storage area for costermonger's barrows and referred to as 'The Shed' which Mrs Prater clearly stated that she lived directly above, placing her overlooking Dorset Street and Crossingham's Lodging House Light that got turned off at 3AM. The door to the upper floors of #26 was just behind the wooden partition that can be seen on the Kelly corpse photo. As you ascended the stair behind it, Kelly's room was on the left, behind the wooden partition and the main back structural wall of #26 was on the right. At the top of the stairs was a small landing, to the left of which was the room directly above Kelly's room, the scene of a family murder some years later but in 1888 according to a press report occupied by a couple who slept soundly through the night of the murder. To the right at the top of the stairs was a room used as a store room that led to the stairwell to the upper floors of the house and the room at the front of the house overlooking Dorset Street that Mrs Prater on two occasions said she occupied.

Hi Stephen,

It would seem that you dont believe the window seen facing the courtyard above Marys was used by Elizabeth either.

To add to your detail, it seems fairly clear based on some examinations of the "partition wall" that it refers to an old door, with a faded 26 facing into Marys room on it, that was sealed in what would have been the entrance to the parlour....which the room once was. With a fireplace at the opposite end...like in any good parlour.

On her room location, Elizabeth says that she could hear when Mary moved furniture about when in her room, and that she heard the cry of "oh-murder" from the courtyard side of the house, how do you reconcile that with her window facing only onto Dorset, at the front of the house, over a shed?

Best regards Stephen.

[Stephen Thomas]

Thanks, Chris

But in order for there to have been a door in the position shown on the Goads Map there would have to have been three doors on the right going through the passage to Millers Court and we know that that is not the case.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Stephen
The passage in the article which interested me was:
....an arched passage, not more than three feet wide, which is unlighted, and from this passage open two doors leading into the houses on either side.

This would seem to suggest that as well as the door on the right hand side (as you went up the passage) leading into the the ground floor of No 26, there was a door on the left leading into McCarthy's shop at No 27. There is, of course, no hint of this on the Goads map.
If this is the case, then the "two doors" mentioned would not include that leading into Kelly's room as this is beyond the covered part of the passageway
Regards
Chris

[perrymason]

Hi Stephen
The passage in the article which interested me was:
....an arched passage, not more than three feet wide, which is unlighted, and from this passage open two doors leading into the houses on either side.

This would seem to suggest that as well as the door on the right hand side (as you went up the passage) leading into the the ground floor of No 26, there was a door on the left leading into McCarthy's shop at No 27. There is, of course, no hint of this on the Goads map.
If this is the case, then the "two doors" mentioned would not include that leading into Kelly's room as this is beyond the covered part of the passageway
Regards
Chris

Hi Chris,

It is mentioned elsewhere that the archway had two doors on the right, the second one being the door to #13. We know Elizabeth uses other than Marys door to enter the house, so its at least 2 on the right side, and I think only 2.

Im hoping you will answer my question Stephen, I am interested im hearing why a sound "as from the court", and the hearing of Mary moving about while in her room marry well with the floor plans that we have seen,....which were not officially current, i.e. not dated November 1888,.... or the quote that referred to her being "above the shed". In some ways, Mary isnt a resident of the same house, even though attached to it, so technically Liz might think herself as being above the shed, because is the only Dorset Address room beneath her. But that cannot be the answer for a voice heard "as from the court", or the statements regarding Marys "moving about" being heard when Liz was in her room.

Sam suggested that her language was odd....Im curious as to what answer you both feel is acceptable for hearing a voice from the court, while sitting in a room with a closed door, over the shed, with 1 window facing Dorset St.

A simple answer is that her room at that time had fore and aft window accesses. But thats been poo-pooed too.

See the problem is that you cant use one quote thats a polar opposite to another and declare that the one you submitted is the trustworthy one. The floor plans are not defacto, neither are the quotes, yet you are asserting that Goads is incorrect. She said she was over the shed. Ive shown how that might be accurate in her mind, and not impinge upon a courtyard window. She said she could hear when Mary moved about....virtually impossible in a first floor room in a house at the opposite end of the ground floor room, and she said that she heard a voice she thought orginated from the courtyard.

Using a bricked archway about 3 feet wide, 8 feet tall and some 20 odd feet long as the sole escape point for a sound wave, just how does Elizabeth interpret a noise she hears from her Dorset window as "from the court"? Or how long after the cry was made, if only catching a vague portion of it when it bounces back from across the street, after I assume ricocheting all around the courtyard first before exiting through that archway.

She is quoted as saying "I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below". She didnt say deceased was in the back of the house in the courtyard, nor did she say Mary wasnt right below her, so......in her own words she contradicts what we know to be the internal layout. Shes wrong? Or we are?

Best regards all.

[Celesta]

Hi Stephen, Chris, et al,

Thanks for addressing the matter of the door. Yes, I'd never heard of a third door on #26 or on that side of the passage. I thought there was only Mary's and the one Prater used. The one in the goad's map was a surprise to me. When I saw it, I immediately started speculating on its use as an escape hatch for the killer. No need to speculate any more.

Once again, thanks.

Best,

Cel

[Stephen Thomas]

On her room location, Elizabeth says that she could hear when Mary moved furniture about when in her room, and that she heard the cry of "oh-murder" from the courtyard side of the house, how do you reconcile that with her window facing only onto Dorset, at the front of the house, over a shed?

Hi Michael

I don't remember directly addressing you before but may I say that I know a true gentleman when I encounter one, and after reading your posts for a couple of years I'd like to say I think of you as such. That said, I must say that I believe that you're not properly 'getting' the 26 and 27 Dorset Street layouts. And believe me please, Elizabeth Prater's room was not DIRECTLY over Mary Kelly's, according to the state of the art internet info we have at our fingertips now. Her room was at the front of the house. As she said.

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Stephen
The passage in the article which interested me was:
....an arched passage, not more than three feet wide, which is unlighted, and from this passage open two doors leading into the houses on either side.

Thanks, Chris

Yes, there must have been some sort of back door exit from #27 though none can be seen on the illustrations.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael

I don't remember directly addressing you before but may I say that I know a true gentleman when I encounter one, and after reading your posts for a couple of years I'd like to say I think of you as such. That said, I must say that I believe that you're not properly 'getting' the 26 and 27 Dorset Street layouts. And believe me please, Elizabeth Prater's room was not DIRECTLY over Mary Kelly's, according to the state of the art internet info we have at our fingertips now. Her room was at the front of the house. As she said.

Thats just about the nicest thing said to me here Stephen, and I appreciate that sincerely. Its about the most important thing to me....manners and compassion. Im glad that comes across.

We havent exchanged much directly, but surely you see my point, that there are quotes by Elizabeth, and by reporters, that say she was "over the shed", and "over Marys room", and the matter of the "oh-cry" source is troubling if she didnt have a window facing the court, by which she might hear a cry "as from the court".

Ive seen all the various floorplans posted here in threads, read the census data, seen the rough sketches of the courtyard and the archway entrance, seen a photo of the entrance, and seen a numbered and named floor plan for 26 and 27 Dorset, and a partial one for the courtyard. I am a builder, and I do know a bit about what happens when you read plans before inspecting the site. I would say original floor plans are accurate perhaps in 50% of the cases Ive seen for Renos. And I believe that census data of that time is potentially hazardous, as very nearly none had any proof of their identity when offering it.

So the plans that show the rooms at fixed sizes and numbers may have been altered in reality, the names we are given for tenants we have no way of authenticating....and there are stories of landlords not officially changing the occupants name against the room each time one moved, as many people in that area moved daily.

My point in summary...Liz herself says something that places her room above Marys, and the shed. The shed is a Dorset St address, as is Liz's, Marys is a Millers Court address, at the rear of 26. I can see why she would say that the shed was under her, its the only Dorset address ground floor space that is....but from the rear of the house, where Mary lives, Liz hears a voice coming from what she thinks is the courtyard.

These cannot be reconciled. She could not hear "as from the court" without facing the court, and having a window into it,...facing Dorset some 20 odd feet in front of the court and floor above it doesnt cut it...and she could not be above both Mary and the shed. They are separated, one is aft, one is fore, both on ground level.

Its the sense that "its clear" that Im getting from you that is prompting the repetive rebuttal, but Im sure you would agree that there is some room for doubt in this matter.

If you dont, then I wont pitch a fit.....after all I now have a reputation to uphold.

All the best.

[White-Knight]

hello! im charging in here. I live in a house with a courtyard rear and in the midst of similar buildings in close proximity. The dimensions are not very akin to those of Miller's Court but from my front bedroom I can still hear a voice sound if made 'as from the court' at the rear, albeit behind two modern brick walls as well as below and behind the room I am in. Its volume,
,though obviously less than a similar sound made to the front is obviously less but you can still hear perfectly well...i have read posts before yearning for a possible experiment as to acoustics. Well, precision is nice but i don't think its such a big challenge to the location of Prater's room and the consistency in her statement that she refers to the source of the voice as seeming to be the court. Sounds do bounce around in these environments but i can still usually tell where a given noise is coming from pretty easily.The human ear can distinguish between a range of sources given a familiar environment , all of which to the familiar listener could be accurately described,even if subtly different, as quite clear. I don't see a problem! am i missing something? you are trying to assert that Prater's room must have been directly and not just broadly above are you? Her statements don't really seem to support that and the 'acoustics' don't really suggest any real self-contradiction. Twenty feet and some bricks isn't such a barrier to sound as you might think. Otherwise I'd never hear my neighbour's mates stumbling round from the pub of a Saturday or the kids playing in the tree in the courtyard when i'm trying to have a lie-in.. I have preferred her directly above before ..I think some accounts do imply it, but I think I and they are a bit macabre..makes it all even more (if that is possible!) sensational and tragic doesn't ?, to think of the closeness of others to the crimes, though we know its all much of a muchness in these little overcrowded streets and dwellings. you don't have to look far to tick that box with any or all of the murders really do you? leave her upstairs in the front,where she belongs! poor thing! could she have worse nightmares already knowing what happened so nearby? humbly...W.K.

[The Good Michael]

Hi Michael
I don't remember directly addressing you before but may I say that I know a true gentleman when I encounter one, and after reading your posts for a couple of years I'd like to say I think of you as such.

Is this the part where you sell him Amway?

(Joking,Joking)

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

She could not hear "as from the court" without facing the court, and having a window into it,

Of course she could, Mike.

To someone living in a room above Kelly, such a sound would have been reported as a "sound from the room below" - or, if outside, a "sound that [definitely] came from the court [because my windows overlook it]". But Prater makes no such pronouncements - she describes a vague sound of a scream emanating from somewhere in the general direction of the courtyard. To an occupant of any room towards the front of the house and "above the shed", a scream from #13 would indeed seem to have originated in the general direction of the courtyard.

If, as I believe, Prater lived on the first floor towards the front of the house, what she says tallies perfectly well with a scream coming from Kelly's room. Hence, "as from the court", and "I often hear such sounds from the back of the lodging-house, where the windows [not MY windows] look into Miller's Court".

It all makes perfect sense, provided one isn't afraid of throwing a few old chestnuts in the fire.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

That was an interesting post White Knight, and good ammunition for those that feel the known evidence suggests that location. Either side of this argument can post quotes on that point, that suggest either her room being "over" Marys....like in the Tuesday Times November 13th,..." Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her."...or her room being over the shed, as in The Telegraph on the 13th, "...Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below".

It cannot be both physically...unless Elizabeth referred to the space between them only in terms of the elevation.

Elizabeth hears when Mary moves about in her room....before anyone says "thats only when she climbs the stairs", find the quote that has her saying that specifically.

I believe that when Elizabeth Prater made her statement, had there been any questions by the Coroner that asked her to specifically cite how she could hear something from the court when she faced onto Dorset...we would have our answer. But there is no issues with what she said apparently, and Im fairly sure that it wasnt due to the Coroners having experiences like yours living in a similar environment accoustically White Knight.

Sam, I think you know Ill toss the entire winters worth of chesnuts on the fire with proof.

Best regards all.