Millers Court - the demolition picture

[Sam Flynn]

Stewart, what do you think to the cry of 'murder'? Do you think it happened at all? I'm wondering who came up with the story first.

So do I. Lewis seemed so keen to get her story about the "Bethnal Green Botherer" heard by all and sundry that she strikes me as a bit of a gossip, and her varied accounts of the men/women she apparently saw on the night in question don't inspire too much confidence either.

[Chava]

So do I. Lewis seemed so keen to get her story about the "Bethnal Green Botherer" heard by all and sundry that she strikes me as a bit of a gossip, and her varied accounts of the men/women she apparently saw on the night in question don't inspire too much confidence either.

I'm with you there, Gareth. First of all I am not at all convinced that cry ever occurred. It's just too pat. Secondly, even if it did happen, it could have been anyone on the vicinity. But on reflection I think the likelihood is that Lewis or Prater saw the advantage of claiming to have heard something important on the night Kelly died. And whichever of the two didn't come up with that story jumped right on the bandwagon. I know I've harped on this before, but then as now, the British press paid for information and stories. Prater probably kept herself in drink for weeks with this stuff and I'm sure Lewis did as well.

Also I truly am surprised how much detail Prater came up with in that 'murder!' event. Especially knowing she was quite drunk when she fell, fully-clothed, into her bed. Not only does she wake right up in time to hear the cry, but also she can give a second-by-second account of how her cat Diddles woke her up. He pressed his face to her mouth! He was cold so he crept into bed! She threw him off! All circumstantial evidence to prove that, yes, she was awake and sentient. I'm sorry. I'm not buying it. I bet she slept like a log all night.

[perrymason]

Thank you Stewart for those posts, what continues to be clear is that there are varying stories, and varying locations mentioned regarding Liz's room location in relation to Marys, but very few that mention a shed.

For clarity, is the contention now that both Liz Prater and Sarah Lewis made up the cry of "oh-murder"...the one they both swore to at the Inquest? Even though the sacred Telegraph, the source of the original "shed" quote, has her stating that she did in fact hear it?

Its at least obvious to me that these "interpretations" are getting incredibly self-serving.

How about working with the "known" Inquest details and following where the evidence suggests...Im know, its not as easy as disparaging any individual or statement or press account that contradicts whatever you personally believe happened, but it might lead to some truth...in case thats of any concern.

And it doesnt mean you have to buy Hutchinson at all....he wasnt at the Inquest....must have been steeling himself for the big reveal Monday night.

Best regards.

[perrymason]

Ive just tried this new technique of analysing statements by taking only what I believe to be true from Elizabeth's remarks regarding her room location, and I used the Telegraph, and voila...the truth....

"Elizabeth Prater...said....I live.....until....No one spoke to me....I should have,..but I,...slept soundly. I heard....A kitten....and was awake again at five a.m. ...At a quarter to six....and half-past one .....I should have .....It is nothing."

This clearly shows that she was an alchoholic, and delirius.

Cheers.

edit......That was a mistake, sorry...smart ass therapy isnt likely to work any better than evidence.

[Paddy Goose]

...then as now, the British press paid for information and stories.

A provocative statement, Chava.

Paddy

[Chava]

A provocative statement, Chava.

Paddy

But true, Paddy! Especially the tabloids... How else would Max Clifford afford that lovely lifestyle.

[perrymason]

In case you had'nt checked out the Echo's version of EP's early morning account and the other ladies residing in the courtyard, ....Its quite interesting and somewhat different from all of the others,.....

The Echo, Nov 13th

"THE HOUR OF THE CRIME.

Up till yesterday there was some doubt as to the time at which the murder was committed. Absurd reports had been published to the effect that Kelly was seen making purchases in the neighbouring shops as late as eight and even nine o'clock on the Friday morning, and statements of this character were persisted in long after it had been ascertained beyond doubt that the woman must have been dead hours previously. Dr. Phillips' evidence, together with that of Mary Anne Cox, Elizabeth Prater, and others, proves that the murder was committed shortly after three o'clock - a fact which brings into startling relief the murderer's coolness, caution, and tenacity of purpose. The woman's drunken merriment lasted until shortly after one o'clock, by which time doubtless the liquor taken in had been consumed. The couple must have sat up talking for half-an-hour or more before they retired for the night, because it is now known that the light was not extinguished until about two o'clock. The murderer must have restrained his fiendish impulse for nearly another hour, probably waiting until all fear of the return of late revellers and others had passed. Long before the murderer finally seized his knife his victim must have been in a deep sleep, from which she was awakened by the murderer's rough hands, but only for the one moment in which she was able to utter the pitiful cry of "Murder," heard by several dwellers in the noisome court. "

I didnt recall reading that the light was seen in her room until 2am anywhere else.

I also found The St James Gazette coverage on the 13th well worded and seemingly on the money on many points...

"Mary Ann Cox, a widow living at Room 5, Miller's court, said she had known the deceased between eight and nine months. She saw her last alive at a quarter to twelve in Miller's court on Thursday night, when she was very intoxicated. She was then with a short, stout man, very shabbily dressed. He had a long dark overcoat and a billycock hat on. He had a pot of ale in his hand. He had a blotchy face and a small carroty moustache. The man slammed the door in the witness's face and the deceased wished her "Good night," and said she was going to have a song. Afterwards she heard the deceased sing, "The violet I plucked from mother's grave." The witness again passed the deceased's room at two o'clock, and there was a light there. She heard no noise or cries of murder. She heard some men go to work early in the morning. The man she saw with the deceased was apparently about thirty five years of age. She would know the man if she saw him again. She would have heard a cry of murder had there been one.

Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her. The witness left her room at five o'clock on Thursday evening, and returned at about one o'clock on Friday morning. She waited about the stairs for twenty minutes. There might have been a light in the deceased's room, but she did not take any notice. She used to hear the deceased walking about in her room. She went to rest at half past one, and she was awakened between half past three and four o'clock and she heard some one say, "Oh, murder!" in a sort of faintish voice. She had often heard cries of murder near the court, and therefore she took no particular notice. She did not hear the cry a second time, nor did she hear beds and tables being pulled about. She did not hear any singing in the deceased's room at half past one o'clock."

I just offer these along with others mentioned so people can judge cumulatively what might sift out of these stories. But the second one did indeed also contain the reference that I thought wasnt repeated, the light seen until 2...by Mary Ann.

I read a great communique today from Samuel Barnett of the St Judes Vicarage on Commercial Street dated the 13th but printed in the East End News November 20th,..it is a commentary regarding the state of affairs in the crime district....a piece of it...

"At the same time there is something which can be done. These houses are managed by agents; the landlords are ladies and gentlemen, and the rents ultimately reach their pockets. These landlords could enforce order, they could see that the rooms are fit for habitation, provided with locks and means of privacy, they could have a night watchman to prevent rows and the intrusion of the vicious, they could see that the tenants lived respectable lives, and they could prove themselves their friends in hours of need. You, Sir, in an article expressed the wish that the names of the owners of the houses in this criminal quarter might be published. My hope is that, as they realise that the rents are the profits of vice, they will either themselves take direct action to improve this disgraceful condition of things, or sell their property to those who will undertake its responsibility.

I am, truly yours,
SAMUEL A. BARNETT.
St. Jude’s Vicarage, Commercial-st.,
Whitechapel, E., Nov. 13."

Putting the owness on the building owners to act not the acting managers..I like that....which in McCarthy's case, are both his roles... for 26-27 Dorset anyway, Im not sure exactly how many properties he did own at that point.

Cheers.

[Sara]

.... and varying locations mentioned regarding Liz's room location in relation to Marys, but very few that mention a shed.

For clarity, is the contention now that both Liz Prater and Sarah Lewis made up the cry of "oh-murder"...the one they both swore to at the Inquest? Even though the sacred Telegraph, the source of the original "shed" quote, has her stating that she did in fact hear it?

Best regards.

As I understand it, the ground floor room on the opposite side of the arched alleyway into Millers Court from McCarthy's shop was *known as the shed* because market or other carts were kept there. There was no shed, as we understand the term.

I too think the good ladies probably made up the cry of 'oh murder' to feed the press, probably in return for a few drinks (or readies for drink). It happens often enough now - and given the poverty in those days, embroidering stories would be only too understandable

[perrymason]

As I understand it, the ground floor room on the opposite side of the arched alleyway into Millers Court from McCarthy's shop was *known as the shed* because market or other carts were kept there. There was no shed, as we understand the term.

I too think the good ladies probably made up the cry of 'oh murder' to feed the press, probably in return for a few drinks (or readies for drink). It happens often enough now - and given the poverty in those days, embroidering stories would be only too understandable

Hi Sara,

I think youre right on the word "shed" in this case, it appears it could be aptly called a Storage Room. The word usually describes a free standing structure apart or joined to the main building.

On "oh-murder", all I can say is that in Elizabeth Prater's case, and applicable to other witnesses called to make statements regarding some of the other Fall victims, they played down the signifigance of that phrase...suggesting it was not unsual to hear it, and the word "commonplace" is used in connection with that phrase. Since we know that a woman was not killed everytime it was called, and in this case Elizabeth herself suggested it was really not that much of a big deal, I fail to see how offering that detail puts her in any advantageous position with pressmen. Paid to add a detail that suggests in its content that it wasnt a signal of imminent danger to anyone to Elizabeth?

Since she is not the only witness to hear it, and another witness located in the court suggest approximately the same time that she heard it, and since it is mentioned by both women under oath, I have no problem accepting it.

That being said, I do not believe that there is any real possibility that Elizabeth woke up from a deep sleeep induced by alchohol, and within seconds hears a voice from her Dorset Street window that she could, with any confidence, place "as from the court".

As I said before, and is perhaps suggested by the article Chris posted recently, that window over the archway may be at the back of Elizabeths room, perhaps with an "L" shape, or with that being the back right corner of it, based on facing Dorset St. I never had any issues with a window front and back, which would enable me to agree to her room location as being "over the shed", I just have issues when there is suggestion that she must have heard that voice as it came through the archway and bounced back to her room, because she only had a Dorset window. And then that gets used to suggest by you and others that the women probably heard nothing and just wanted to be a part of it or make a few bucks.

Its a flawed premise to begin with that has now impacted the ability of some to even see the qualified witnesses as having made honest statements.

Please remember these are the trusted witnesses....the one that truly fits the description above comes in after the Inquest. And Sarah Lewis thought the voice was "at her door", which would be consistent with The Keylers location juxtaposed to Marys, and the voice heard as from the court.

Best regards

[Sara]

Surely the important evidence regarding where Prater's room was, is tha tof the inquest? - thanks for posting (p17 of this thread). the coroner's report merely says 'up the stairs' and 'over the room where the deceased lived'. Prater could easily therefore occupy the second floor rear room, of which the window is just above the lean-to rooms at the back of the house

The fact is that the evidence as given is vague and is unlikely ever to be clarified, and as it stands it's open to question as the woman was even by her own admission very drunk that night. But it's not going to make any big difference even if we do agree on where Prater's room was!

Re there being more than one witness to the Oh Murder cry - these are neighbours who no doubt discussed the night endlessly before the inquest. I find it hard to believe IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT JTR WAS ALREADY CAUSING PANIC IN THE AREA that no-one would have raised the alarm, but I guess it's easy in the middle of the night to think you've imagined something like that, or to keep quiet from fear. Some thing about the story just doesn't ring true to me, though

[Chava]

Michael you make a good point about the fact that the cry was played down. It's true that if Prater and/or Lewis really wanted to do well by it they could have embroidered it a bit. But I do think that it's unlikely that Prater did anything else but snore her head off that night and picked up on the story that Lewis told about hearing someone cry out. All those people were stuck in the court until later in the afternoon on the day the murder was discovered. I can't believe they didn't hang around and exchange stories and info. I imagine the police were all over the court taking statements, and it would be beyond human nature just to sit quiet and not talk about what had happened, who had seen Kelly last etc etc. So by the time we get to the inquest I doubt there was a witness who hadn't been tainted so to speak by gossiping with the others.

[perrymason]

Michael you make a good point about the fact that the cry was played down. It's true that if Prater and/or Lewis really wanted to do well by it they could have embroidered it a bit. But I do think that it's unlikely that Prater did anything else but snore her head off that night and picked up on the story that Lewis told about hearing someone cry out. All those people were stuck in the court until later in the afternoon on the day the murder was discovered. I can't believe they didn't hang around and exchange stories and info. I imagine the police were all over the court taking statements, and it would be beyond human nature just to sit quiet and not talk about what had happened, who had seen Kelly last etc etc. So by the time we get to the inquest I doubt there was a witness who hadn't been tainted so to speak by gossiping with the others.

Hi Chava,

I believe with Elizabeth in particular there is some indication that she, perhaps more than any other witness from the court or house, was acutely aware the morning of the kill that this murder could have easily been hers, had the killer chosen to enter the doorway to the stairs. She saw Mary in the bed through the window while getting water from the pump.

I have to believe that seeing the event itself, rather than hearing about it from other accounts or people in the street gathered by the entranceway would have some very signifigant impact on a witness. I believe she thought her testimony could help the investigation, and perhaps by aiding in catching the killer, it might also spare her life as a potential next victim. She might have been honest as a form of self protection.

Best regards C.

[Celesta]

Hi MIchael,

Yes, I think that Elizabeth knew very well that she could have been the victim. I think she knew that he could have come home with any of the women there, or simply marked them in the street and followed them back.

Best,

Cel

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you Stewart for those posts, what continues to be clear is that there are varying stories, and varying locations mentioned regarding Liz's room location in relation to Marys, but very few that mention a shed.

There are two that obstinately remain, however, Mike, as well as that nugget about the couple in the room above Kelly sleeping through it all. Like I said - these are logically consistent within themselves, and with those newspaper accounts that place Prater merely "above" or "in A room above" Kelly. Logically consistent, also, with Prater's utterances about noises off.

I've yet to see an interpretation based on the alternative, "traditional", view that could explain all that - irrespective of how many otherwise worthy sources in which it might have cropped up. It only takes a slip of the pen, a mis-hearing or the cloning of a context-starved summary to account for those. In contrast, it would take the mother of all typos to account for such things as "first floor front room", "I live above the shed" and "the couple in the room above the deceased".

[Chava]

I think we're being too literal about our interpretation of what Prater is saying. If she says 'I live over the deceased' she may mean right over the deceased or she may simply mean 'I live on the floor above and in proximity to the deceased'. Also I always thought she lived alone. But clearly in one of those articles she says she was waiting outside on Dorset St for the man she lived with.

However what now interests me is that Cox is reported as having said she could see a light on in Kelly's room at 2.00 am. How did she see that light? There were old clothes and whatnot hung over the windows, and some old jacket stuffed into the broken pane of glass. Given that Kelly seems to have relied on candle light for her lighting at night, I'm not sure how any of that light could have pierced the stuff hung over the windows. Maybe she saw the light from the blazing fire. If that's what she saw, then Kelly was probably dead before 2.00 am. Because I doubt she would have a fire burning that hotly if she were just getting ready to go to bed. And the fire seems to have been used to light the room while the Ripper went about his work.