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**Dan Norder** · 02-17-2008, 11:00 PM

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 03:31 PM
My guess would be HanslopeI'd agree, Chris - there's a "lope" or maybe a "cope" in there somewhere.

It might be a clerical error, in that the first five letters of the surname might be construed as "Henry...". A bit like Charlie's Angels' "Boswell John Boswell", perhaps, here we may have had "Name?" - "Henry, Henry Cope" (or something similar), coming out as "Henry Henrycope".

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cgp100
19th January 2008, 03:34 PM
FreeBMD has a Henry Hanslope married in Islington in 1869, so that may be the same man.

Chris Phillips

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chris
19th January 2008, 03:37 PM
Hi Guys
many thanks for the reading - it has led somewhere!
I have found what I think is the right man in the 1871 census under the surname Hanslope. If this is him, and he was living in Millers Court in 1889 he had certainly come down in the world.
1871:
3 Beaumont Street, Cavendish Square
Head: Henry Hanslope aged 22 born Lavenham, Suffolk - Commercial Traveller (Books)
Wife: Sarah A Hanslope aged 30 born Clingor, Middlesex
Son: John H aged 4 months

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cgp100
19th January 2008, 03:44 PM
Hi Guys
many thanks for the reading - it has led somewhere!
I have found what I think is the right man in the 1871 census under the surname Hanslope. If this is him, and he was living in Millers Court in 1889 he had certainly come down in the world.
1871:
3 Beaumont Street, Cavendish Square
Head: Henry Hanslope aged 22 born Lavenham, Suffolk - Commercial Traveller (Books)
Wife: Sarah A Hanslope aged 30 born Clingor, Middlesex
Son: John H aged 4 months

It looks as though he's the same one married in Islington in the last quarter of 1869, as there's a Sarah Ann Mason with a matching reference.

Certainly he'd come down in the world by 1901, when he was a shepherd in Boxford, West Suffolk!

Chris Phillips

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chris
19th January 2008, 03:52 PM
Hi Chris
I saw the 1901 entry but cannot find him in either 1881 or 1891
Also still lookingfor the date of his death. His birth was registered in Cosford, Suffolk in 1848

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Just peachy
19th January 2008, 05:25 PM
Maybe drink was his downfall?
This is from the Illustrated Police News March 27 1886. It seems like the same man.
Debs

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cgp100
19th January 2008, 05:30 PM
Maybe drink was his downfall?
This is from the Illustrated Police News March 27 1886. It seems like the same man.

Very interesting. I must say this kind of thing is a welcome antidote to the endless back-biting that sometimes makes me despair of Internet forums.

On the other hand, at this rate I can see poor Henry being a fully fledged suspect by the end of the day ...

Chris Phillips

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Just peachy
19th January 2008, 05:36 PM
On the other hand, at this rate I can see poor Henry being a fully fledged suspect by the end of the day ...

Chris Phillips

...funny you should say that Chris!....Nah, he's interesting though.
Here's another, he may have been the guy inpersonating a detective at music halls, age and location fit. This is from the Liverpool mercury June 19 1871.
There is also another article from 1868 mentioning a respectable young man named Henry Hanslope from Lavenham, who attacked his mother.

Debs

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Just peachy
19th January 2008, 05:43 PM
Here's the assault on the mother article, not sure if it is him, but seems likely.

10198

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 06:17 PM
It seems the name was cursed - the full name of Mary Pearcey's infant victim was Phoebe Hanslope Hogg.

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suzi
19th January 2008, 07:29 PM
Blimey!! just picked up this thread......great name though 'eh Sam!

Will read back and get up to what passes for speed!!!

Suzi x

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baron
19th January 2008, 07:41 PM
Yeah. I found Hanslope too. I noticed that the recorder used a split 'p'. After that it wasn't difficult.

Good job Chris.

Mike

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 08:11 PM
I noticed that the recorder used a split 'p'
...no wonder so many patients ended up in a lentil hospital

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baron
19th January 2008, 08:14 PM
Gareth,

I've been waiting for one of your tasteless puns. Where have you bean?

**Dan Norder** · 02-17-2008, 11:01 PM

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Just peachy
19th January 2008, 08:16 PM
Here's the assault on the mother article, not sure if it is him, but seems likely.

Going by the BMD and census details Chris S. has posted on Henry Hanslope, I think this probably is the same man that attacked his mother in 1868.
This man's father John, a farmer, died died 17th Feb 1862 aged 47, at Lavenham and his mother Anne (who he seems to have helped out on the farm before his marriage and after the death of his father, going by some news reports on various thefts in Lavenham) died 6th Oct 1888 aged 67 years, in Lavenham.
His sister Mary Ann married married Charles Rocock, draper of Lavenham. on 16 sept 1873. These are from various BMD sections in the papers.

Debs

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Stephen Thomas
19th January 2008, 08:34 PM
What?

A formerly 'respectable' attacker of women who is prone to alchohol induced bouts of psychosis found living next door to Mary Kelly?

Hmmmmmmmmm

Well done Chris, Debs and CGP

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Just peachy
19th January 2008, 08:56 PM
What?

A formerly 'respectable' attacker of women who is prone to alchohol induced bouts of psychosis found living next door to Mary Kelly?

Hmmmmmmmmm

....who was fond of hanging around 'music halls' pretending to be a detective and the mother he assaulted dying in Oct 88!....suspect books have been written on less!

Debs

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richardn
19th January 2008, 09:02 PM
Hi,
Hate to say it folks , but living in millers court, a drunkerd, and subject to violent outbursts, also how old was he at the time of the murders, dare i say the infamous number 39?.
Naturally just another coincidence rearing its head.
Regards Richard.

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 09:07 PM
Wife: Sarah A Hanslope aged 30 born Clingor, Middlesex
Son: John H aged 4 months
On inspection, "Clingor" looks like it might have been "Islington" - the census return and/or the scan is defective at this point. John H was born there too.

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robert
19th January 2008, 09:17 PM
Was Henry a bigamist too? He seems to have married Eliza in 1897 - yet Sarah appears to have died in 1907. Divorces weren't so common in those days.

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ChavaG
19th January 2008, 09:21 PM
I told you guys it was a domestic!

Interesting that the beak giving him the sentence for abusing his wife was 'Mr Lushington'. Given that was common slang for a drunkard at the time. My bet is that the journalist didn't get the beak's name and it was a common practice and in-joke to substitute another. This was still going on as recently as the 60s and 70s. A journalist pal of mine, when a junior reporter on a paper in Montreal, used the name 'Xavier L'Esperance' as this kind of catch-all when he covered family court, flower shows, local fires etc etc. It was commonly done by all the journalists in the newsroom...

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robert
19th January 2008, 09:23 PM
Hate to say it, Richard, but Henry has the perfect alibi - as everyone knows, Joe Barnett dunnit.

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baron
19th January 2008, 09:32 PM
...but what if? We were here to see it unfold. That would be worth more than a mastodon skull at a Creationism museum (inside joke).

Mike

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m_w_r
19th January 2008, 09:34 PM
Henry Hanslope is on the web at http://fp.raylong.plus.com/lavenham/d98.html.

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Stephen Thomas
19th January 2008, 09:40 PM
Hate to say it, Richard, but Henry has the perfect alibi - as everyone knows, Joe Barnett dunnit.

No he didn't, Robert, it was George Hutchinson who wasn't George Hutchinson really but actually Joseph Fleming. Please pay attention.

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chris
19th January 2008, 10:03 PM
Hi guys
Thank you so much for all the feedback!
Debs
Great stuff and very valuable - many thanks
Sam
Thanks for the Islington correction
MWR
many thanks for the web link

Mr H i shaping up to be an interesting character
Now I have Mr Gavven in my sights

Thanks again
Chris

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**Dan Norder** · 02-17-2008, 11:02 PM

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 10:09 PM
I told you guys it was a domestic!

Interesting that the beak giving him the sentence for abusing his wife was 'Mr Lushington'. Given that was common slang for a drunkard at the time. My bet is that the journalist didn't get the beak's name and it was a common practice and in-joke to substitute another.
Nice thought, Chava, but this was no nickname. Sir Franklin Lushington (1823-1901) was the Chief Police Magistrate for London, a Fellow of Trinity College Cambridge, and close friend of poet Edward Lear. In fact, Lear was in love with Lushington, but his hopes were dashed when the latter did not reciprocate. Lear was heartbroken by the rejection, and never quite got over it, apparently.

There was a young poet named Lear
Who one day came over all queer
He soon took to crushing on
His friend, Franklin Lushington,
Who spurned his advances - oh dear!

- Anon.

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chris
19th January 2008, 10:11 PM
It looks as though henry's second marriage was legal
Although his first wife, Sarah Ann, lived until 1907 and her death was registered under the name of Hanslope, there is a record of Henry remarrying to his second wife, Eliza.
1897 Quarter 1
Cosford, Suffolk
Henry Hanslope married Eliza Richardson

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baron
19th January 2008, 10:22 PM
This guy seems important. A heavy drinker (maybe) with a history of violence in his mid to late 30s, perhaps a blotchy face from alcohol... okay the last one is just an add-on, but seriously folks. Maybe no one saw blotchy face leave because blotchy face stayed in the Court.

Mike

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chris
19th January 2008, 10:49 PM
Thomas Gavven
Died Feb 1889 aged 22
Born circa 1866 or 1867
I had been unable to find any other occurrence of the surname GAVVEN but there is one birth record, albeit female, as follows:
1866 Quarter 2
Meriden
Louisa Gavven
6d 370
This entry does not appear under its proper spelling in the searchable index - it would be very easy to mistake it for GAWEN but in this case it is definitely GAVVEN
Meriden is small town a few miles to the east of Birmingham
This may given a location for the family

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robert
19th January 2008, 11:03 PM
Chris, yes, he did remarry - but I'd still like to see evidence of the divorce.

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 11:05 PM
This entry does not appear under its proper spelling in the searchable index - it would be very easy to mistake it for GAWEN but in this case it is definitely GAVVEN
I'm not so sure, Chris. There are many names like "Gawen" - it probably derives from "Gawain" at some point - like Major "Gowen", from Fawlty Towers, for example. Then there's "Gowan" (my uncle's surname), as another. Offhand, I can't think of any British surname with "VV" in the middle. I'm pretty certain that "GAVVEN" can be attributed to a mis-read, and that "Gawen" is the more likely version of the name.

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chris
19th January 2008, 11:11 PM
Hi Sam
I take your point but all I meant was that in the case of Thomas and Louisa the surname is recorded in the official index as GAVVEN. If you compare the Louisa entry above with the surname of the entry below, which starts with GAW, the difference is clear.
Regards
Chris

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m_w_r
19th January 2008, 11:34 PM
The Louisa Gavven (b.1886q2), whose birth entry is posted above, seems likely to be the same person as the Louisa Gavin whose death is recorded in 1873q2. Both birth and death are recorded in Meriden.

On the basis that spelling in Victorian times was an inexact science, I would contend that the following Thomas Gevan, who appears in the 1881 census, might prove to be our man. Shout me down if you think not...

111 Hospital Street, Birmingham, Warwickshire -
George Gevan, head, married, 38, bootmaker, b. Birmingham, Warwickshire
Selina Gevan, wife, married, 34, b. Wolverhampton, Warwickshire
Thomas Gevan, son, 13, bootmaker, b. Birmingham, Warwickshire
Rosina [?] Smith, mother-in-law, widow, 64, assistant, b. Birmingham, Warwickshire
William Gevan, son, 7, scholar, b. Birmingham, Warwickshire
Elizabeth Whelan, servant, widow, 43, general servant, b. Birmingham, Warwickshire

Mark

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Sam Flynn
19th January 2008, 11:44 PM
I take your point but all I meant was that in the case of Thomas and Louisa the surname is recorded in the official index as GAVVEN. If you compare the Louisa entry above with the surname of the entry below, which starts with GAW, the difference is clear.
True, Chris - but we're just looking at two transcripts, of which one, other or both could be wrong. Or am I missing something?

Not that I'm too bovvered - sorry! - bowered

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cgp100
20th January 2008, 12:11 AM
Chris, yes, he did remarry - but I'd still like to see evidence of the divorce.

For reasons I am not at liberty to disclose, I recently found out that early divorce records in the National Archives (J 77) are now included in the online catalogue. These go at least as far as 1897, but a search under Hanslope doesn't bring anything up.

Chris Phillips

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robert
20th January 2008, 12:19 AM
Thanks for that, Chris. I tried "Cutbush" and got one as late as 1928.

Robert

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**Dan Norder** · 02-17-2008, 11:02 PM

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m_w_r
20th January 2008, 12:20 AM
Incidentally, I think the jury's very much out on the legality of Henry Hanslope's second marriage; although common sense would suggest that you wouldn't go back to your home patch (I suspect that Lavenham and Cosford are not very far apart) to get married unless it was all above board, for fear of getting the rumour mill going. Bigamous marriages are, surely, better entered into in places where people don't know of you or your antecedents.

In the 1891 census, 51-year-old Sarah Ann Hanslope, Henry's first wife, is, for reasons which are not clear, listed as the "daughter" of the 38-year-old head of her household, a Mr William Andrews. In fact, she was actually in domestic service - and her husband had almost certainly split from her by then. By extension, Sarah Ann's daughter by Henry, Ellen Emily (b.1872q1, Islington), who is still living with Sarah Ann, is recorded entirely erroneously as the "granddaughter" of William Andrews. She is also mistakenly given the name Eleanor.

From the 1891 census, then (I am leaving out the extensive Andrews family to whom Sarah Ann is in service):

16, Hooks Road, Peckham, London -
Sarah Hanslope, daughter [sic], married, 51, general servant, b. Holloway, London
Eleanor Hanslope, granddaughter, single, 19, b. Holloway, London

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m_w_r
20th January 2008, 01:52 AM
Sir Franklin Lushington (1823-1901) was the Chief Police Magistrate for London, a Fellow of Trinity College Cambridge ...

Not to go off track, but Ripper "suspect" James Kenneth Stephen had a younger brother by the name of Harry Lushington Stephen. Their father, James Fitzjames Stephen, like Sir Franklin Lushington, had attended Trinity College, Cambridge; and both James Fitzjames Stephen and Franklin Lushington had served as president of the Cambridge Apostles. It seems likely that Harry Lushington Stephen was named after the magistrate, who later reciprocated by naming one of his own sons George Henry Fitzjames Lushington.

Mark

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Just peachy
20th January 2008, 02:01 AM
...While people are in a helpful searchy mood, Can I chuck this in? I'm still looking for an Elizabeth Bushman in any census who was aged 17, and resident at 8 Miller's Court in April 1888 when she was admitted to the Infirmary. I've been searching on and off since June 2006 with no luck!

Debs

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chris
20th January 2008, 02:44 AM
Hi Debs
looking closely at the entry you mention (on 23 April1888) it might be worth looking under Bashman as a possible variant (see below)
Chris

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Sox
20th January 2008, 04:31 AM
I'm not sure whether she did or not, but given that it was McCarthy - not Barnett - who stated that Kelly received occasional letters from her "mother" in Ireland, it would seem that the landlord received at least some mail on behalf of his lodgers.

That is what is bothering me Sam. If Kellys mother was writing to her, then can we assume that her mother would use Kellys real name on the envelope? And if McCarthy recieved her mail, then wouldnt it follow that he would have known that name?

No mention of any letters being found in Kellys room? McCarthy never mentions that Mary Jane Kelly was not her real name, nor does Barnett. Sorry for derailing the thread a little, but I just thought mailing addresses could be important and that you are the folks that would know

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chris
20th January 2008, 06:14 PM
Here is what I've been able to find about Henry Hanslope so far. The main omissions are the 1881 and 1891 census details and the date of henry's death - any help appreciated!

Henry Hanslope
Birth:
1848 - Cosford, Suffolk
Census:
1851:
Market Place, Lavenham, Suffolk
Head: John Hanslope aged 35 born Suffolk - Victualler
Wife: Ann Hanslope aged 30 born Hunstons, Suffolk
Children:
Mary Ann aged 4 born Camden Town
Henry aged 2 born Lavenham, Suffolk
1861:
Lady Street, Lavenham, Suffolk
Head: John Hanslope aged 45 born Thurston, Suffolk - Farmer of 60 acres, Collector of Parish rates
Wife: Ann Hanslope aged 40 born Thurston
Children:
Mary Ann aged 14 born Camden Town
Henry aged 12 born Lavenham
1871:
3 Beaumont Street, Marylebone
Head: Henry Hanslope aged 22 born Lavenham - Commercial Traveller (Books)
Wife: Sarah A Hanslope aged 30 born Islington
Children:
John H aged 4 months born Islington
1901:
Brick Kiln Hill Cottage, Cosford, Suffolk
Head: Henry Hanslope aged 52 born Lavenham - Shepherd
Wife: Eliza Hanslope aged 34 born Whatfield, Suffolk
Children:
Mary Ann aged 6 born St Pancras
Henry J aged 4 born St Pancras
Patrick aged 10 months born Suffolk
Marriages:
1873:
Cosford, Suffolk
Mary Ann Hanslope married Charles Bocock
1869:
Islington, London
Henry Hanslope married Sarah Ann Mason
1897:
Henry Hanslope married Eliza Richardson
Deaths:
1907
Greenwich
Sarah Ann Hanslope aged 67
1888:
Cosford, Suffolk
6 September 1888
Anne Hanslop (Henry's mother)

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chris
20th January 2008, 07:38 PM
In my previous post the date of death of Anne Hanslope should read 6 October 1888, not 6 September

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Just peachy
20th January 2008, 10:53 PM
It seems the name was cursed - the full name of Mary Pearcey's infant victim was Phoebe Hanslope Hogg.

Sam, a bit of trivia for you;
The two families were actually related as far as I can tell!....how, I haven't had the stamina to work out, but...

Henry (of Miller's Court) Hanslope's father was named John Hanslope b Suffolk c 1815 to Joseph and Ann Hanslope, he also had a sister named Maria Hanslope b 1817 in Thurston Suffolk.
A Maria Hanslope b Thurston Suffolk c 1820 married James Hogg in 1839 and their son Frank S Hogg b c 1859 was the husband of Phoebe Hogg and father of the infant Phoebe Hanslope Hogg.

Thanks for the Bashman hint Chris, I will look closer at that.

Regarding the death of Henry Hanslope, could he be the Henry Hanslope aged 67 who died March qtr 1909 in West Derby? I notice a shift in the BMD's to West Derby/Liverpool after 1901, quite a few births and deaths where there once were none.
Also there is a L/CPL John Hanslope who was b in St Pancras who died in the Great War 7 June 1917 aged 23, he enlisted in Lancaster and had a brother G Hanslope living at 5 Duncan street Liverpool. I'm not sure but could he be the John Hanslope, son of Henry and Elizabeth?

Debs

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Sam Flynn
20th January 2008, 11:20 PM
Sam, a bit of trivia for you;
The two families were actually related as far as I can tell!Well, I never! Thanks, Debs.

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chris
21st January 2008, 12:22 AM
Debs
I was going through some South Grove records today and came across the surname RASHMAN - that might be worth a try as well
Chris

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Sam Flynn
21st January 2008, 12:45 AM
I was going through some South Grove records today and came across the surname RASHMAN - that might be worth a try as wellThere are a couple of 1891 census records relating to "Elizabeth/Eliza Buckman" of the right age, occupation and roughly correct location (Paddington, Shoreditch) to be a possible match, Chris.

**Sam Flynn** · 02-17-2008, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by sox

19th January 2008. Sam, any idea if the residents of Millers Court had seperate mailing addresses? Would Kelly have had mail delivered to No13?

Originally posted by Sam Flynn

I'm not sure whether she did or not, but given that it was McCarthy - not Barnett - who stated that Kelly received occasional letters from her "mother" in Ireland, it would seem that the landlord received at least some mail on behalf of his lodgers.

As a follow-up to that, I note that the Sourcebook records Mrs Prater giving her address as 27 Dorset Street on her Police statement. Unless this was an error, it perhaps indicates that she may have used McCarthy's address for "official" purposes.

(PS, Dan: thanks for resurrecting this!)

**Debra A** · 02-18-2008, 01:22 AM

Henry Hanslope newspaper clippings

Just reposting the 3 Newspaper articles that were part of the thread.

Illustrated Police News Mar 27 1886

Ipswich Journal Sat May 9 1868

Liverpool mercury Mon Jun 19 1871

**Debra A** · 09-15-2009, 02:20 AM

Another snippet

At the adjourned general quarter sessions held at Clerkenwell. 27th July 1885.
Henry Hanslope, charged with indecent assault. sentence: Bill ignored

**Roy Corduroy** · 09-26-2009, 06:35 AM

Bill Ignored indicates that although a Bill of Indictment had been issued but it was for the wrong reasons as the Bill did not reflect the evidence being advanced. For example where someone is accused of armed robbery, but the evidence being put forward suggests that the crime was one of assault. Therefore the Bill had been issued for armed robbery and was no basis for a conviction of assault. The Bill would therefore have been ignored

Thanks Debs, Chris and all. Both men are interesting. Hanslope for obvious reasons, Gavven because he died.

Roy

**Debra A** · 09-26-2009, 10:42 AM

Thanks for that bit of information, Roy. Interesting.

**Debra A** · 02-26-2013, 10:28 AM

In the 1885 indecent assault charge against Henry Hanslope, the victim was named as his daughter, Ellen Emily Hanslope, who would have been 13 in 1885.

**RockySullivan** · 09-25-2014, 01:42 AM

Is there anything that indicates Henry was skilled with a knife. These assaults....impersonating a plain clothes detective (my mind goes to torso)..classic serial killer behaviour.....and how close to Kelly!!! But we need someone whose skilled with a knife...this was pointed out by someone a few weeks ago how much affection the ripper would have for his knife....but goddamn this henry fellow fits the profile far better than Koz or any other suspect and he lives at millers court!!!

**Debra A** · 09-25-2014, 02:29 AM

Hi Rocky, thanks for resurrecting this thread -it made me have another quick look at Henry and I discovered that I was right when I wrote this in the crashed thread (as Just peachy)

Originally posted by Sam Flynn

It seems the name was cursed - the full name of Mary Pearcey's infant victim was Phoebe Hanslope Hogg.

Originally posted by Me

20th January 2008, 10:53 PM
Sam, a bit of trivia for you;
The two families were actually related as far as I can tell!....how, I haven't had the stamina to work out, but...

Henry (of Miller's Court) Hanslope's father was named John Hanslope b Suffolk c 1815 to Joseph and Ann Hanslope, he also had a sister named Maria Hanslope b 1817 in Thurston Suffolk.
A Maria Hanslope b Thurston Suffolk c 1820 married James Hogg in 1839 and their son Frank S Hogg b c 1859 was the husband of Phoebe Hogg and father of the infant Phoebe Hanslope Hogg.

Henry Hanslope was a cousin of the Hogg family and commented upon the state of mind of Mr Hogg, in at least one paper:

Evening Telegraph and Star and Sheffield Daily Times, Thursday, October 31, 1890

I also found another incident in 1868 where Hanslope claimed (convincingly)to be a plain clothes inspector and proceeded to take money from a pub landlord as a bribe for turning a blind eye to a gambling incident that had occurred in the pub earlier.

No knife incidents so far though.

**RockySullivan** · 09-25-2014, 02:46 AM

Thank you Debra! I've never heard of Mr. hog before...sounds very intriguing. And hanslope's assault on his own daughter...dear god do we have any info on this? Where exactly was Henry in relation to Kelly in millers court?since we have a list of millers court residents who that we have on the list where occupation known has anything to do with a knife at all? How about Dorset street residents? Please excuse my ignorance in this area as you all have much more experience with these specifics than i do. I am astonished at the accomplishments you all have contributed so far to this aspect of the case!!

**Debra A** · 09-25-2014, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post

Thank you Debra! I've never heard of Mr. hog before...sounds very intriguing. And hanslope's assault on his own daughter...dear god do we have any info on this? Where exactly was Henry in relation to Kelly in millers court?since we have a list of millers court residents who that we have on the list where occupation known has anything to do with a knife at all? How about Dorset street residents? Please excuse my ignorance in this area as you all have much more experience with these specifics than i do. I am astonished at the accomplishments you all have contributed so far to this aspect of the case!!

This old thread might interest you, Rocky. It has a little bit of discussion on where Henry lived in Miller's Court.

Toilets in Millers Court - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5497

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Millers Court residents in Whitechapel Infirmary (recovered thread)

Millers Court residents in Whitechapel Infirmary (recovered thread)

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