Help On Some Details

[MrBarnett]

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[MrBarnett]

That is not in the source you’re referring to. One cannot pick tidbits from one source and assume they’re in the context of another.

No mention of Harvey going anywhere, that’s from the inquest.

I hadn’t appreciated the rules. I thought it was acceptable to compare sources and discuss their discrepancies.

What do you mean ‘it’s from the inquest?’

The wording in the Telegraph coverage of the inquest is:

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.

[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ?

- Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again."

[MrBarnett]

I hadn’t appreciated the rules. I thought it was acceptable to compare sources and discuss their discrepancies.

What do you mean ‘it’s from the inquest?’

The wording in the Telegraph coverage of the inquest is:

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.

[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ?

- Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again."

And on the 10th November, The Times was claiming that Mariah Harvey was living in New Court - the same address she gave at the inquest.

[Kattrup]

I hadn’t appreciated the rules.

So few people do and just look at the state of the world

I thought it was acceptable to compare sources and discuss their discrepancies.

of course, if that’s what we’re discussing.

What do you mean ‘it’s from the inquest?’

that the information about Harvey’s comment is from the inquest coverage, not from the article with Barnett’s comments.

The wording in the Telegraph coverage of the inquest is:

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.

[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ?

- Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again."

I don’t think there’s any evidence that Harvey had left MJK’s room for good, is there? Yes, papers later give her address as New Court, but she could hardly stay in MJK’s room after the murder.

To recap what I think we’re discussing: you claim Barnett’s comment in the paper meant he would come back to MJK if she, MJK, moved, and you claim this implies something about the place made him uneasy, further implying that he had some clue or forewarning about the murder perhaps?

I disagree, since it seems clear to me that the “she” Barnett mentions is Harvey, who he wanted out of MJK’s room.

[MrBarnett]

So few people do and just look at the state of the world
of course, if that’s what we’re discussing.
that the information about Harvey’s comment is from the inquest coverage, not from the article with Barnett’s comments.

I don’t think there’s any evidence that Harvey had left MJK’s room for good, is there? Yes, papers later give her address as New Court, but she could hardly stay in MJK’s room after the murder.

To recap what I think we’re discussing: you claim Barnett’s comment in the paper meant he would come back to MJK if she, MJK, moved, and you claim this implies something about the place made him uneasy, further implying that he had some clue or forewarning about the murder perhaps?

I disagree, since it seems clear to me that the “she” Barnett mentions is Harvey, who he wanted out of MJK’s room.

The PIP piece I was responding to carries identical wording to the Telegraph’s coverage of the inquest.

The Times on the 10th November goes further, it explicitly states that Harvey had moved to New Court:

Harvey, however, took a room in New-court, off the same street, but remained friendly with the unfortunate woman, who visited her in New-court on Thursday night.

Unless Harvey made her comment sotto voce, Barnett would have been aware that she wasn’t planning to stay with Mary that night. So perhaps Harvey had moved to New Court, and Barnett knew so, in which case the ‘she’ he wanted to move may have been Mary herself. Harvey was, it seems, a Ratcliffe Highway* woman. Perhaps it was her malign influence that Barnett wanted to get Mary away from.

*Debra discovered that Harvey had lived in Station Place, a notorious nest of brothels in St. George’s and spent time in the workhouse there. Interestingly, the mother-in-law of Stephen Maywood of Breezers Hill, a likely associate of the Morganstone/Buki/McCarthy lot, had also lived in Station Place and (a) New Court.

[MrBarnett]

BTW, I’m not claiming anything. Just wondering whether the Ratcliffe Highway came calling in the form of Maria Harvey.

[Wickerman]

In the original court document Barnett says he left Kelly on 30th Oct. (which was a Tuesday), between 5-6 pm.

In the Daily Telegraph we only read that he left on the Tuesday between 5-6 pm.

As Mrs Harvey says she slept with Kelly on the Monday & Tuesday nights (presumably meaning the 5th & 6th of Nov.) then the D.T. version implies it was Harvey whom Barnett objected to.

There may be confusion here.
If Barnett left because of the 'other woman' on 30th Oct., then this 'other woman' wouldn't have been Harvey.
The 'other woman' may have been Lizzie Albrook, who was with Kelly on the Thursday when Barnett called, and she did live in the court. So it may have been Albrook whom Kelly took in at the end of October, causing Barnett to leave.

[Curious Cat]

To be clear...

Maria Harvey was the woman who was taken in by Mary around the 30th October, which caused the row between Mary and Barnett that led to the broken window?

But she had moved to a room in nearby New Court a few days before the murder?

Where was New Court in relation to Miller's Court/Dorset Street? Was it another of McCarthy's properties or another landlord?


I've read conflicting reports as to who the woman was in Mary's room when Barnett visited her on the night of the killing. Is it fairly certain who she was or is it still just a bit iffy as to her ID?

[Joshua Rogan]

To be clear...

Maria Harvey was the woman who was taken in by Mary around the 30th October, which caused the row between Mary and Barnett that led to the broken window?

But she had moved to a room in nearby New Court a few days before the murder?

Where was New Court in relation to Miller's Court/Dorset Street? Was it another of McCarthy's properties or another landlord?


I've read conflicting reports as to who the woman was in Mary's room when Barnett visited her on the night of the killing. Is it fairly certain who she was or is it still just a bit iffy as to her ID?

According to the PIP 17 Nov interview with Barnett;
"We lived comfortably until Marie allowed a prostitute named Julia to sleep in the same room. I objected; and as Mrs. Harvey afterwards came and stayed there, I left her, and took lodgings elsewhere."

This is backed up somewhat by an interview with Mautice Lewis in the IPN 17 Nov;
"He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia."

This is most likely Julia Vanturney, who lived at no.1 Millers Court.

New Court was half way along the North side of Dorset Street, but wasn't one of McCarthy's properties.

[Wickerman]

Harvey said at the inquest she stayed with Kelly on Monday & Tuesday nights, that's the 5th & 6th.

"Maria Harvey having been sworn deposed as follows: I live at No.3 New Court Dorset Street I knew deceased as Mary Jane Kelly I slept two nights with her on Monday & Tuesday nights last I slept with her – We were together all the afternoon on Thursday. I am a laundress."

New Court is further down Dorset Street from Millers Court.

[rjpalmer]

Hi RJ,
May I make a minor correction to your Post #43?

Hi Simon.

By all means, correct away, but, at the risk of being dense, I'm not quite certain how we disagree. I think I’m with you.

According to McCarthy (inquest deposition) the body was discovered at around 10. 45 a.m.

Let's give Bowyer 15 minutes to run to the nick. The police are alerted by around 11.00 a.m.

Phillips is in Miller's Court by 11.15 a.m. (his inquest deposition) and this would appear to support the general time frame.

Now the biggy: according to Robert Anderson: “at 11 o’clock the last murder was discovered and we knew it here in Scotland Yard a few minutes later.” So, let’s call it 11.15 a.m. The C.I.D.’s head honcho is now in the loop.

Yet, as we know, the door isn’t forced until 1.30 p.m. The uniformed blue-bottles, not to menion Dr. Phillips, muck around for 2 hours and 15 minutes waiting for dogs that Anderson had already decided were not going to be sent within a few minutes after 11.15 a.m., and, even more astonishing, the dogs weren’t available anyway. Anderson, if we take him at his word, was oblivious to this, as was apparently Arnold. So, at the very least, there appears to have been a major communication breakdown. Further, since Warren was still sitting in his saddle until the end of the month, it gives off a whiff of insubordination. Warren, in October, wanted to test the dogs, and Phillips was obviously still under the impression this was the game plan.

At best, Warren, Phillips, Anderson, and Arnold are not reading from the same script; at worst, Anderson is going rogue, and enlists Arnold in the decision. Of course, he had spent much of the past weeks out of the country.

The 12.30 p.m. time you mention appears to be when Lushington learned of the murder from Warren, but I’m not entirely understanding what this tells us about the rest of the time frame.

Either way: a 2 hour and 15-minute delay? In the old British detective shows, this is the point in the plot where the overworked divisional detective is starting to wonder if someone from the Central Office is running interference. Phillips must have been a very patient man. I would have waited 30 or 40 minutes tops and then asked one of those strapping lads to kick the door in.

I hope you are dining well on the Christmas leftovers.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've read conflicting reports as to who the woman was in Mary's room when Barnett visited her on the night of the killing. Is it fairly certain who she was or is it still just a bit iffy as to her ID?

Maria Harvey said at inquest that she was in Mary Jane's room when Joe called. He said, in the Daily News;
"[Coroner] Was there any one else there on the Thursday evening ? - Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards"

However, in the PIP 17 Nov is the following;
"Lizzie Albrook, a young woman of twenty, who resides in Miller's court, and works at a lodging house in Dorset street, also made the following statement:
I knew Mary Jane Kelly very well, as we were near neighbours. The last time I saw her was Thursday night, about eight o'clock, when I left her in her room with Joe Barnett, who had been living with her"

I'm not sure if Lizzie Albrook was a pseudonym for Maria Harvey, or just parroted her story, or even vice versa.

[Wickerman]

Harvey gave New Court as her current address on the day of the murder, the 9th.
This suggests there was four people in the room on Thursday evening.

[Curious Cat]

So would the timeline then be...


Julia Vanturney is invited to stay at 13 Miller's Court at the end of October.

Mary Kelly and Joseph Barnett argue about this arrangement on the 30th October, which results in a broken window (and possibly damage to the lock/door).

Joseph Barnett finds new lodgings in Bishopgate.

Julia Vanturney leaves 13 Miller's Court. 31st October-1st/2nd November

Maria Harvey stays at 13 Miller's Court 5th&6th November.

Maria Harvey visits Mary Kelly at 13 Miller's Court on 8th November.

Joseph Barnett visits Mary Kelly at 13 Miller's Court every day since leaving, including the 8th November. He arrives while Maria Harvey is still there.

Lizzie Albrook also visits Mary Kelly on the evening of 8th November. When she arrives is not clear but she leaves before Maria Harvey at about 8pm with Joseph Barnett.

Maria Harvey leaves shortly after Lizzie Albrook, so anything between 8pm and 8:30pm.

[Joshua Rogan]

But Harvey does say there was another woman in the room besides Kelly & Barnett.
Albrook being an alternate for Harvey would not solve the mystery of the 4th person in the room.

Thanks Jon, I must have missed that. Do you have the source?