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  • #16
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    Hi Wickerman. Fair enough, but common knowledge or not, it would have been pretty darned obvious wouldn't it? When a person accidently locks him or herself out, the first thing they do is rattle the knob. The second thing is to check all the windows.

    With all those coppers assembled in Miller's Court, none of them thought to apply Housebreaking 101?
    If we look at this from the view of trying to get in, then yes.
    However, if we bear in mind Phillips's caution that the room should not be contaminated, to wait for the dogs, then housebreaking wasn't a consideration.

    How much time passed from the moment the order for the dogs was countermanded, and McCarthy picking up his axe?

    As an alernative explaination, in 1889 we have Inspector Henry Moore stating directly that the door lock was jammed. No one wants to hear it, but it does explain McCarthy's pickaxe.
    Possibly.
    Regards, Jon S.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
      If we look at this from the view of trying to get in, then yes.
      However, if we bear in mind Phillips's caution that the room should not be contaminated, to wait for the dogs, then housebreaking wasn't a consideration.

      How much time passed from the moment the order for the dogs was countermanded, and McCarthy picking up his axe?
      Very little, or none, according to the Times;

      From an interview with McCarthy: "So soon as Superintendent Arnold arrived he gave instructions for the door to be burst open. I at once forced the door with a pickaxe, and we entered the room"

      Dr Phillips:
      "Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time, I remained until about 1:30, when the door was broken open, by M'Carthy I believe. I know he was waiting with a pickaxe to break open the door, and I believe he did it. The direction to break open the door was given by Superintendent Arnold. I prevented its being opened before."

      Frederick G. Abberline, detective-inspector, Scotland-yard, having charge of this case, said he arrived at Miller's-court about 11:30 on Friday. He did not break open the door as Inspector Beck told him that the bloodhounds had been sent for and were on the way, and Dr. Phillips said it would be better not to break open the door until the dogs arrived. At 1:30 Superintendent Arnold arrived, and said the order for the dogs had been countermanded, and he gave orders to force the door.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
        As an alernative explaination, in 1889 we have Inspector Henry Moore stating directly that the door lock was jammed. No one wants to hear it, but it does explain McCarthy's pickaxe.
        Do you think Moore was just spinnng a dramatic tale, or perhaps mis-remembering this, from the Star 10 Nov 88?

        "HOW THE MURDERER ESCAPED.
        The murderer must have got out of the window, as the door was barricaded from the inside with the bedstead"

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        • #19
          According to Robert Anderson, Superintendent Arnold was with him at Scotland Yard at 11.00 am when the request for bloodhounds arrived. Anderson objected to the use of dogs, and Arnold also begged him not to send them, saying "that it would only lead to mischief."

          Commercial Street and Leman Street police stations were connected to Scotland Yard by telephone. So why an order to break down the door wasn't immediately sent to Millers Court is a mystery we can ponder over a mince pie and a single malt on Christmas Day.
          Last edited by Simon Wood; 12-22-2018, 01:22 PM. Reason: spolling mistook
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
            Very little, or none, according to the Times;

            From an interview with McCarthy: "So soon as Superintendent Arnold arrived he gave instructions for the door to be burst open. I at once forced the door with a pickaxe, and we entered the room"

            Dr Phillips:
            "Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time, I remained until about 1:30, when the door was broken open, by M'Carthy I believe. I know he was waiting with a pickaxe to break open the door, and I believe he did it. The direction to break open the door was given by Superintendent Arnold. I prevented its being opened before."

            Frederick G. Abberline, detective-inspector, Scotland-yard, having charge of this case, said he arrived at Miller's-court about 11:30 on Friday. He did not break open the door as Inspector Beck told him that the bloodhounds had been sent for and were on the way, and Dr. Phillips said it would be better not to break open the door until the dogs arrived. At 1:30 Superintendent Arnold arrived, and said the order for the dogs had been countermanded, and he gave orders to force the door.
            Agreed, so it does not look like anyone chose to even ask how to get in, or wasted any time asking questions.
            Regards, Jon S.

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            • #21
              Thank you for the responses so far - and the welcome.

              Going through what's been said...

              Was the ability to reach the lock through the window tested on the reconstruction by there being no pane of glass in the frame or with the glass in place and the arm going through the broken section? What I'm trying to get at here is would it have snagged on clothing or caused injury given the angle of the broken glass while reaching for the door? I would love to have seen Burnett's coat/jacket sleeve for evidence of snagging. Alas, that's obviously impossible. What did Mary do to open the door when Burnett was not around, particularly after he left her?

              Was the window broken in order to open the door or was the window broken anyway by a separate reason?

              As has been mentioned - and what I was wondering about - was how no-one thought to open the door via the broken window given it was through this opening Bowyer had discovered the body. McCarthy as the landlord must've known a) about the broke window some time before and b) its use as a way to open the door. If the door was prone to jamming or having problems with the lock would McCarthy have been aware of this already? If the concern was contamination of the crime scene, then surely a pickaxe through the door would create damage to possible evidence. For one thing a chance to examine the door and lock for clues on how the killer entered/left.
              In terms of having to reach 20 inches to unlock the door from the window, is that the length from the door edge to the outside corner or from the door edge to the window? If a few kicks from Mary could open the door, why the need to reach in through the window to open it? The door was opened and closed possibly up to 5 times between the night of the 9th into the morning of the 10th before it was forced open. This final bust down of the door appears to have taken particular effort compared to the previous ones. Is it possible something was done with the door - by the killer? - to make it even more difficult to open other than its usual sticking problem.

              Even when not as common in the colder months, flies would still detect and seek out a dead body when it occurs. The previous canonical victims were found before the process of locating the body and leaving larvae had a chance to take place, however Mary Kelly is estimated to have been laying dead long enough for at least some flies to gather with a degree of notability. It just seems unusual for there not to be increased insect activity in the room by the time of discovering the body or later entering the room. We're heading towards about 10 hours after the estimated time of death when they finally bust the door open. Which leads me to...

              The witnesses who say they saw Mary post 8am independantly of each other. If this pushes her time of death to a few hours later this could explain a lack of insect activity around the body as the time for the process to start is also pushed back.


              Oh, and I'm aware of what curiousity did to the cat.

              It's fine.

              I'm a ghost.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

                Was the window broken in order to open the door or was the window broken anyway by a separate reason?
                The window was broken in a row between Kelly and Barnett some little time before the murder.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                  The window was broken in a row between Kelly and Barnett some little time before the murder.
                  Would this have been before or after the murder of Catherine Eddowes?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post
                    ........ If the concern was contamination of the crime scene, then surely a pickaxe through the door would create damage to possible evidence. For one thing a chance to examine the door and lock for clues on how the killer entered/left.
                    Right, so rather than assume there is something suspicious about how the door was opened. Perhaps it is better to read just how the door was actually opened.

                    ...This final bust down of the door appears to have taken particular effort compared to the previous ones.
                    I've lost count how many times I've read someone question why the door was smashed in or bust open, and now we have a pick-axe through the door....

                    When all else fails, why not just read what was said.

                    (Supt. Arnold).." gave directions for the door to be forced."

                    The door was only forced. Which means pried open, causing the least damage.
                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                      Right, so rather than assume there is something suspicious about how the door was opened. Perhaps it is better to read just how the door was actually opened.



                      I've lost count how many times I've read someone question why the door was smashed in or bust open, and now we have a pick-axe through the door....

                      When all else fails, why not just read what was said.

                      (Supt. Arnold).." gave directions for the door to be forced."

                      The door was only forced. Which means pried open, causing the least damage.
                      This is why I'm asking questions. To gain clarity.

                      Some of these details are actually quite fresh to me, hence the thread.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        Right, so rather than assume there is something suspicious about how the door was opened. Perhaps it is better to read just how the door was actually opened.



                        I've lost count how many times I've read someone question why the door was smashed in or bust open, and now we have a pick-axe through the door....

                        When all else fails, why not just read what was said.

                        (Supt. Arnold).." gave directions for the door to be forced."

                        The door was only forced. Which means pried open, causing the least damage.
                        And with my experience with old spring latches probably not a lot of pressure required, jus a bit of leverage in the right spot.
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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                        • #27
                          Superintendent Arnold, on arriving at the scene, ordered the door to be forced open

                          "I at once forced the door with a pickaxe, and we entered the room."

                          Soon Superintendent Arnold arrived, and instructions to burst the door open were given. "I at once forced it with a pickaxe and we entered."

                          [Dr. Phillips]—I remained until about 1:30, when the door was broken open, by M'Carthy I believe. I know he was waiting with a pickaxe to break open the door, and I believe he did it.

                          Superintendent Arnold, the officer in charge of the division, arrived on the scene, and at once took over charge. By his direction M'Carthy obtained a pickaxe, and the door was forced open.

                          Or, then again, perhaps the door was broken open by a policeman—

                          Click image for larger version

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                          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                            Right, so rather than assume there is something suspicious about how the door was opened. Perhaps it is better to read just how the door was actually opened.



                            I've lost count how many times I've read someone question why the door was smashed in or bust open, and now we have a pick-axe through the door....

                            When all else fails, why not just read what was said.

                            (Supt. Arnold).." gave directions for the door to be forced."

                            The door was only forced. Which means pried open, causing the least damage.
                            And if Arnold had said, “Smash the ****** down” that’s how it would have been reported?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post
                              Would this have been before or after the murder of Catherine Eddowes?
                              The window was broken "quite some time ago" or "a few weeks ago",so probably about three weeks.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                              • #30
                                Re the insect activity, I don't think there'd have been too many flies around in November. Even if there had been, I doubt that sufficient time had elapsed since Kelly's death for them to have made their presence felt, even if she'd been lying there for several hours.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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