Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer?

[Sam Flynn]

if so, which one "lived" at millers court? kennedy correct?
and or kennedys parents lived there? and lewis was going to stay with them ?

And Lewis timed her argument with her husband to coincide with "Kennedy" coming home, too?

[Wickerman]

And Lewis timed her argument with her husband to coincide with "Kennedy" coming home, too?

Lewis doesn't say they had their argument at that time of morning.
They could have argued earlier in the day, then he goes off to work.
She leaves when he came home, not choosing to spend the night in the same room as him.

[Wickerman]

hi wick
Ok I think ive got your idea.

kennedy and lewis were friends and they were both together on the wed night sighing of the BGB-and refer to each other as the other woman/friend/sister they were with (but they are friends). And that they were apart on the night of marys murder, both going at different times to the same home in Millers court? do I have it right?

if so, which one "lived" at millers court? kennedy correct?
and or kennedys parents lived there? and lewis was going to stay with them ?

Correct Abby, the reports suggest the Keyler's (Gallaghers in the press) at No.2 were Kennedy's parents, and this is where Kennedy was living at that moment in time.
Was Kennedy with her husband at No.2?, or had she split from her hubby, or perhaps, had hubby left her and she returned to Mom's, or had hubby died prematurely?
We just don't know why she was there.

Last I read, Debs was looking for Mrs Kennedy, and she posted that she had found a Kennedy related?, to Mrs Paumier.
I feel there is sufficient here to accept Kennedy did exist, and was not an alternate name for Lewis.

[Abby Normal]

Correct Abby, the reports suggest the Keyler's (Gallaghers in the press) at No.2 were Kennedy's parents, and this is where Kennedy was living at that moment in time.
Was Kennedy with her husband at No.2?, or had she split from her hubby, or perhaps, had hubby left her and she returned to Mom's, or had hubby died prematurely?
We just don't know why she was there.

Last I read, Debs was looking for Mrs Kennedy, and she posted that she had found a Kennedy related?, to Mrs Paumier.
I feel there is sufficient here to accept Kennedy did exist, and was not an alternate name for Lewis.

Ok thanks wick
The more i think of it, hutch neednt even be lying about seeing mary and aman(although he probably was). Mary could have gone out again after aman shortly after 3:00 and ran into the BGB.

Do you see the resemblance in kind of the confident, joky yet creepy demeaner between, the BGB, marshalls man, even longs man?

[Wickerman]

Ok thanks wick
The more i think of it, hutch neednt even be lying about seeing mary and aman(although he probably was). Mary could have gone out again after aman shortly after 3:00 and ran into the BGB.

Do you see the resemblance in kind of the confident, joky yet creepy demeaner between, the BGB, marshalls man, even longs man?

Hi Abby.

The trouble with Marshall's suspect is the woman had no flower on her jacket. Yet Stride was seen wearing the flower by Gardner at 11:00 outside the Bricklayer's Arms, and by PC Smith at 12:30 outside Dutfields Yard.

Then there's the cap, I know you hold that detail dear to your heart I'm just not so sure the peaked cap could be mistaken for a tall & black Billycock hat. But then I have a similar problem with Smith changing the hat for his suspect, from a hard hat (Billycock?), to a Deerstalker, which is a soft hat.
My gut feeling is the Smith suspect is the same man seen by Best & Gardner with Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms. And both could be the BGB-man in my opinion.

I suspect the couple seen by Marshall are that courting couple we read about, also mentioned by Mortimer.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

The trouble with Marshall's suspect is the woman had no flower on her jacket. Yet Stride was seen wearing the flower by Gardner at 11:00 outside the Bricklayer's Arms, and by PC Smith at 12:30 outside Dutfields Yard.

Then there's the cap, I know you hold that detail dear to your heart I'm just not so sure the peaked cap could be mistaken for a tall & black Billycock hat. But then I have a similar problem with Smith changing the hat for his suspect, from a hard hat (Billycock?), to a Deerstalker, which is a soft hat.
My gut feeling is the Smith suspect is the same man seen by Best & Gardner with Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms. And both could be the BGB-man in my opinion.

I suspect the couple seen by Marshall are that courting couple we read about, also mentioned by Mortimer.

I have a feeling that they all saw the same man, peaked cap man, and best and gardener either saw stride with a different man, or just got the hat wrong.

And im not budging on that either. : )

But yes, they could most definitely be the BGB.

[Michael W Richards]

Of the close to 800,000 people living in that area at the time, and assuming that a reasonable ratio would be 50-50 male or female, once you've sorted out statistically how many men within the general age range...28-35 years, could be wearing similar clothing, youd have thousands to look at. The fact that a witness who sees someone wearing a particularly described coat or hat on any particular night, which seems very close to another crime where the witness describe a "suspect" in quite similar terms, doesn't then mean we have the same man. Hundreds of "suspects" would have been dressed very similarly unless in specialized clothing. Which isn't the case with our witness accounts...no one sees a butcher talking with a victim for example.

[Wickerman]

Of the close to 800,000 people living in that area at the time, and assuming that a reasonable ratio would be 50-50 male or female, once you've sorted out statistically how many men within the general age range...28-35 years, could be wearing similar clothing, youd have thousands to look at. The fact that a witness who sees someone wearing a particularly described coat or hat on any particular night, which seems very close to another crime where the witness describe a "suspect" in quite similar terms, doesn't then mean we have the same man. Hundreds of "suspects" would have been dressed very similarly unless in specialized clothing. Which isn't the case with our witness accounts...no one sees a butcher talking with a victim for example.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you, which is why more unique traits are required. Like, if the suspect had "peculiar eyes", or "weak eyes, without any eyelashes". And, walks with, "an awkward gait".

These less common traits should narrow the field down considerably.

“Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes".
Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.

The fact this man was known to accost females at night should push him front & center on anyone's list of suspects, if we only had a name.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think anyone would disagree with you, which is why more unique traits are required. Like, if the suspect had "peculiar eyes", or "weak eyes, without any eyelashes". And, walks with, "an awkward gait".

These less common traits should narrow the field down considerably.

“Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes".
Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.

The fact this man was known to accost females at night should push him front & center on anyone's list of suspects, if we only had a name.

hi wick
I would stick with peaked cap as what ties it all together. if it was the BGB-after the events of the double event after so many witnesses describe peaked cap man, I doubt he would wear it again when he was out hunting.


marshalls man sounds so much to me like the BGB. his tone, the way he talked. Jokey, cocky, brazen almost.


BGB man-no qualms about approaching two women. asking one to go with him to a secluded place. "something the ladies don't like". "what are you afraid of?"


The ripper-no qualms going right back to another woman after the failed stride attempt.


marshalls man-"you would say anything but your prayers".


Dare I say it-kind of reminds me of Aman a bit. lol.


also, browns couple could have been the one seen by Mortimer any way right? (instead of marshalls couple)

[Michael W Richards]

also, browns couple could have been the one seen by Mortimer any way right? (instead of marshalls couple)

I think that's almost a certainty Abby. They are conspicuous in their absence from the Schwartz storyline I think as well.