Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer?

[Abby Normal]

The Bethnal Green Botherer(BGB) of Sarah Lewis fame has always intrigued me.
A man who fits the general description of witnesses, whos in the immediate area of kelly, apparently solicitating women, frightened women, trying to get them to go to a secluded spot. saying incriminating things like"something the ladies dont like".
Lewis saw him twice so hes apparently lurking around the area over several days.


My possible scenario is this:

mary goes out after blotchy leaves.(1:30ish am)

Hutch appears on scene and goes to marys place looing for a place to crash. Shes not home so he goes to take his vigil across from the court.(2:00 am)


sarah lewis is on her way to Millers court and again sees the BGB-this time speaking to a woman (mary Kelly?). she hurries to the court and spots Hutch waiting. (2:15ish)



after waiting some time for her return, hutch finally leaves (3:00am)


mary and the BGB botherer return to her room (3:45-4:00ish am)


The BGB is the ripper and kills her around 4:00 am which jibes with the heard cries of murder.



The only thing for this scenario to be plausible is to not beleive hutchs Aman story (not that hard to do!).

[Wickerman]

hi sam and wick
I started a new thread about this on Kelly victim section

I transferred the above quote to act as a segue way to this topic...

Hi Abby, you took me by surprise with the initial post. Much of what you wrote is what I have supported for some years, but with a few minor exceptions.

The Britannia-man (Bethnal-Green-Botherer), is the most likely suspect in my view so a thread on this character is long overdue.

So, if we can step through some of your points we might be able to expand on this theory.

"mary goes out after blotchy leaves.(1:30ish am)"

Agreed, totally. The room being in darkness & quiet after 1:00 am is quite consistent with this argument.


"Hutch appears on scene and goes to marys place looing for a place to crash. Shes not home so he goes to take his vigil across from the court.(2:00 am)"

Ok, so this assumes the story Hutch told was an invention. Then you write...

"sarah lewis is on her way to Millers court and again sees the BGB-this time speaking to a woman (mary Kelly?). she hurries to the court and spots Hutch waiting. (2:15ish)"

So Hutch is waiting outside Millers Court from just after 2:00, and Kelly is out.
Lewis comes past the Britannia just before 2:30 (because she was inside the Keylers when the clock struck 2:30), and see's a woman talking with the Britannia-man.
Lewis claimed she did not know Kelly, so that's where we don't agree.
Besides, Lewis only saw one woman with the man outside the Britannia.

Kennedy, who passed the same spot about 3:00, saw two women talking with the same man. One of the women was reported to be Kelly.
Then you write...

"after waiting some time for her return, hutch finally leaves (3:00am)"

"mary and the BGB botherer return to her room (3:45-4:00ish am)"

"The BGB is the ripper and kills her around 4:00 am which jibes with the heard cries of murder."

It just seems strange to me that you have Hutch waiting outside Millers Court for almost 45 minutes, while Kelly is 120+ feet away at the corner of Dorset St. talking with someone else.
Unless, Kelly was not there at 2:00 or 2:30, but only arrived there around 3:00, roughly the time Hutchinson left.
Kelly then brings your BGB-man (Britannia-man) to her room and, as you say, is her killer.

So in these scenario's you could take Hutchinson's story out of it altogether.
However, in my view the story by Kennedy is required to complete the picture.

I assume you take Lewis & Kennedy to be the same woman.
Yet they both have a different home addresses.
Lewis saw one woman just before 2:30, Kennedy saw two women about 3:00.
Only Lewis mentioned a loiterer (Hutchinson?) outside Millers court.
No-one at the time suspected they were the same person. This seems to be another modern interpretation, but for what reason?

So, we are close in our interpretations.

[Abby Normal]

I transferred the above quote to act as a segue way to this topic...

Hi Abby, you took me by surprise with the initial post. Much of what you wrote is what I have supported for some years, but with a few minor exceptions.

The Britannia-man (Bethnal-Green-Botherer), is the most likely suspect in my view so a thread on this character is long overdue.

So, if we can step through some of your points we might be able to expand on this theory.

"mary goes out after blotchy leaves.(1:30ish am)"

Agreed, totally. The room being in darkness & quiet after 1:00 am is quite consistent with this argument.


"Hutch appears on scene and goes to marys place looing for a place to crash. Shes not home so he goes to take his vigil across from the court.(2:00 am)"

Ok, so this assumes the story Hutch told was an invention. Then you write...

"sarah lewis is on her way to Millers court and again sees the BGB-this time speaking to a woman (mary Kelly?). she hurries to the court and spots Hutch waiting. (2:15ish)"

So Hutch is waiting outside Millers Court from just after 2:00, and Kelly is out.
Lewis comes past the Britannia just before 2:30 (because she was inside the Keylers when the clock struck 2:30), and see's a woman talking with the Britannia-man.
Lewis claimed she did not know Kelly, so that's where we don't agree.
Besides, Lewis only saw one woman with the man outside the Britannia.

Kennedy, who passed the same spot about 3:00, saw two women talking with the same man. One of the women was reported to be Kelly.
Then you write...

"after waiting some time for her return, hutch finally leaves (3:00am)"

"mary and the BGB botherer return to her room (3:45-4:00ish am)"

"The BGB is the ripper and kills her around 4:00 am which jibes with the heard cries of murder."

It just seems strange to me that you have Hutch waiting outside Millers Court for almost 45 minutes, while Kelly is 120+ feet away at the corner of Dorset St. talking with someone else.
Unless, Kelly was not there at 2:00 or 2:30, but only arrived there around 3:00, roughly the time Hutchinson left.
Kelly then brings your BGB-man (Britannia-man) to her room and, as you say, is her killer.

So in these scenario's you could take Hutchinson's story out of it altogether.
However, in my view the story by Kennedy is required to complete the picture.

I assume you take Lewis & Kennedy to be the same woman.
Yet they both have a different home addresses.
Lewis saw one woman just before 2:30, Kennedy saw two women about 3:00.
Only Lewis mentioned a loiterer (Hutchinson?) outside Millers court.
No-one at the time suspected they were the same person. This seems to be another modern interpretation, but for what reason?

So, we are close in our interpretations.

Hi wick
Thanks.your correct..I meant to say 230ish when lewis comes to the court and sees hutch.

Ill respond more layer gotta skidaddle.

[Sam Flynn]

What was Kennedy's address?

[Abby Normal]

I transferred the above quote to act as a segue way to this topic...

Hi Abby, you took me by surprise with the initial post. Much of what you wrote is what I have supported for some years, but with a few minor exceptions.

The Britannia-man (Bethnal-Green-Botherer), is the most likely suspect in my view so a thread on this character is long overdue.

So, if we can step through some of your points we might be able to expand on this theory.

"mary goes out after blotchy leaves.(1:30ish am)"

Agreed, totally. The room being in darkness & quiet after 1:00 am is quite consistent with this argument.


"Hutch appears on scene and goes to marys place looing for a place to crash. Shes not home so he goes to take his vigil across from the court.(2:00 am)"

Ok, so this assumes the story Hutch told was an invention. Then you write...

"sarah lewis is on her way to Millers court and again sees the BGB-this time speaking to a woman (mary Kelly?). she hurries to the court and spots Hutch waiting. (2:15ish)"

So Hutch is waiting outside Millers Court from just after 2:00, and Kelly is out.
Lewis comes past the Britannia just before 2:30 (because she was inside the Keylers when the clock struck 2:30), and see's a woman talking with the Britannia-man.
Lewis claimed she did not know Kelly, so that's where we don't agree.
Besides, Lewis only saw one woman with the man outside the Britannia.

Kennedy, who passed the same spot about 3:00, saw two women talking with the same man. One of the women was reported to be Kelly.
Then you write...

"after waiting some time for her return, hutch finally leaves (3:00am)"

"mary and the BGB botherer return to her room (3:45-4:00ish am)"

"The BGB is the ripper and kills her around 4:00 am which jibes with the heard cries of murder."

It just seems strange to me that you have Hutch waiting outside Millers Court for almost 45 minutes, while Kelly is 120+ feet away at the corner of Dorset St. talking with someone else.
Unless, Kelly was not there at 2:00 or 2:30, but only arrived there around 3:00, roughly the time Hutchinson left.
Kelly then brings your BGB-man (Britannia-man) to her room and, as you say, is her killer.

So in these scenario's you could take Hutchinson's story out of it altogether.
However, in my view the story by Kennedy is required to complete the picture.

I assume you take Lewis & Kennedy to be the same woman.
Yet they both have a different home addresses.
Lewis saw one woman just before 2:30, Kennedy saw two women about 3:00.
Only Lewis mentioned a loiterer (Hutchinson?) outside Millers court.
No-one at the time suspected they were the same person. This seems to be another modern interpretation, but for what reason?

So, we are close in our interpretations.

Hi Wick thanks for the response.

Lewis comes past the Britannia just before 2:30 (because she was inside the Keylers when the clock struck 2:30), and see's a woman talking with the Britannia-man.
Lewis claimed she did not know Kelly, so that's where we don't agree.
Besides, Lewis only saw one woman with the man outside the Britannia.

not sure we don't agree. I don't understand your point here. I know lewis didn't know Kelly. I merely was wondering (hence my question mark) if the woman she saw talking to the BGB (bethnal green botherer and im going to use this from now on so I don't have to write it out, or your Britannia man, every time LOL) could have been Kelly.

Kennedy, who passed the same spot about 3:00, saw two women talking with the same man. One of the women was reported to be Kelly.

as you know Ive never given much credence to "kennedy" IMHO just a garbled press account of Lewis, or someone trying to get there 15 minutes of fame parroting lewis story.


but im all ears-go ahead and expound on her-who was she? why is she relevant?

It just seems strange to me that you have Hutch waiting outside Millers Court for almost 45 minutes, while Kelly is 120+ feet away at the corner of Dorset St. talking with someone else.
Unless, Kelly was not there at 2:00 or 2:30, but only arrived there around 3:00, roughly the time Hutchinson left.

why is Kelly "120+feet away at the corner of Dorset st. talking to someone else"? I didn't say that-what do you mean?


im saying Kelly was out of the immediate area while hutch was waiting-he didn't see her-and yes she arrivd back with BGB after 3:00 after hutch had left.

So in these scenario's you could take Hutchinson's story out of it altogether.
However, in my view the story by Kennedy is required to complete the picture.

why?

Only Lewis mentioned a loiterer (Hutchinson?) outside Millers court.
No-one at the time suspected they were the same person. This seems to be another modern interpretation, but for what reason?

well to be precise-there is no evidence that anyone made the connection. they could have its just never recorded or lost.

to me its obvious they were the same man-hutch was standing there doing exactly what lewis said he was doing at the same time-and Im not budging on this. : )

[Wickerman]

What was Kennedy's address?

Several press accounts designate her parents address in the court as her "home".

[Sam Flynn]

Several press accounts designate her parents address in the court as her "home".

Hmm...

[Michael W Richards]

This attempt at creating a single person from 2 is getting tired. Lewis did not live in the court, period.

[Wickerman]

not sure we don't agree. I don't understand your point here. I know lewis didn't know Kelly. I merely was wondering (hence my question mark) if the woman she saw talking to the BGB (bethnal green botherer and im going to use this from now on so I don't have to write it out, or your Britannia man, every time LOL) could have been Kelly.

Ah, ok. You were suggesting the unnamed woman might have been Kelly, its clear now.
Sure, we can go with BGB instead of BM if you find it shorter

...'as you know Ive never given much credence to "kennedy" IMHO just a garbled press account of Lewis, or someone trying to get there 15 minutes of fame parroting lewis story.

Yes, I'm aware some have a different take on Kennedy. It's just that Kennedy claimed Kelly was with the BGB, not Lewis, so I wondered if you merged their stories together.

why is Kelly "120+feet away at the corner of Dorset st. talking to someone else"? I didn't say that-what do you mean?

I thought you were implying that.
You had said Lewis saw Kelly with BGB about 2:15 ish, and elsewhere we read that Kennedy saw Kelly with BGB about 3:00, so I assumed from that, that Kelly was at the end of the street all the time that Hutch was standing outside Millers Court.
It just read that way to me.

.... yes she arrivd back with BGB after 3:00 after hutch had left.

Which made me think you were acknowledging Kennedy's story (seeing Kelly at 3:00).

why?

Because Hutchinson does not see Kelly out after she entered her room, it is Kennedy who confirms Kelly was back out on the streets about 3:00.

well to be precise-there is no evidence that anyone made the connection. they could have its just never recorded or lost.

to me its obvious they were the same man-hutch was standing there doing exactly what lewis said he was doing at the same time-and Im not budging on this. : )

"same man"?
We seem to be at cross purposes, I wasnt talking about the loiterer & Hutch being the same - I'm sure they were. I meant Lewis & Kennedy, no-one at the time believed they were the same.

When I said, "for what reason?", I meant, why dismiss Kennedy's account, what is the benefit?
Is it because she saw Kelly out at 3:00, and some refuse to accept this?
Is it because her story rules out Blotchy, and or Astrachan, as the killer?

George Sims referred to this BGB & "the Kennedy's" in a column, a week after the murder.
"...It was a man of exactly this type, I gather from the slight description (peculiar looking), who spoke to the Kennedys on the night of the last murder."

There was one account in the press where one reporter merged various suspect descriptions together, as if they all refer to the same man.

“Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes."
Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.

What intrigues me about this is that the man with "funny eyes" & "awkward gait", is believed to be the same man.
A suspect with peculiar eyes was seen by Bowyer in the court, and also seen at the Bricklayers Arms with Stride before she was murdered.
A man with an awkward gait as seen running away from the Chapman murder scene on the morning of her murder.

This BGB-man just may be the murderer.

[Sam Flynn]

This attempt at creating a single person from 2 is getting tired. Lewis did not live in the court, period.

Kennedy was either passing off Sarah Lewis's story as her own, the press got things wrong, or Lewis was using the name "Kennedy"... or some weird combination thereof.

There is no way on God's earth that two separate women upped stumps to stay the night with relatives/friends in the room opposite Kelly's on the same bloody night within a short time of each other, reported almost identical happenings on that night AND had almost identical experiences in Bethnal Green a few days earlier.

The very notion that these were two independent witnesses is absolutely ridiculous; if they were independent, then Kennedy was making things up based on Lewis's story, or vice versa.

[Abby Normal]

Kennedy was either passing off Sarah Lewis's story as her own, the press got things wrong, or Lewis was using the name "Kennedy"... or some weird combination thereof.

There is no way on God's earth that two separate women upped stumps to stay the night with relatives/friends in the room opposite Kelly's on the same bloody night within a short time of each other, reported almost identical happenings on that night AND had almost identical experiences in Bethnal Green a few days earlier.

The very notion that these were two independent witnesses is absolutely ridiculous; if they were independent, then Kennedy was making things up based on Lewis's story, or vice versa.

I agree Sam
That's why im trying to leave her out of my scenario of mary meeting the BGB.

[Abby Normal]

Ah, ok. You were suggesting the unnamed woman might have been Kelly, its clear now.
Sure, we can go with BGB instead of BM if you find it shorter



Yes, I'm aware some have a different take on Kennedy. It's just that Kennedy claimed Kelly was with the BGB, not Lewis, so I wondered if you merged their stories together.



I thought you were implying that.
You had said Lewis saw Kelly with BGB about 2:15 ish, and elsewhere we read that Kennedy saw Kelly with BGB about 3:00, so I assumed from that, that Kelly was at the end of the street all the time that Hutch was standing outside Millers Court.
It just read that way to me.




Which made me think you were acknowledging Kennedy's story (seeing Kelly at 3:00).


Because Hutchinson does not see Kelly out after she entered her room, it is Kennedy who confirms Kelly was back out on the streets about 3:00.




"same man"?
We seem to be at cross purposes, I wasnt talking about the loiterer & Hutch being the same - I'm sure they were. I meant Lewis & Kennedy, no-one at the time believed they were the same.

When I said, "for what reason?", I meant, why dismiss Kennedy's account, what is the benefit?
Is it because she saw Kelly out at 3:00, and some refuse to accept this?
Is it because her story rules out Blotchy, and or Astrachan, as the killer?

George Sims referred to this BGB & "the Kennedy's" in a column, a week after the murder.
"...It was a man of exactly this type, I gather from the slight description (peculiar looking), who spoke to the Kennedys on the night of the last murder."

There was one account in the press where one reporter merged various suspect descriptions together, as if they all refer to the same man.

“Shortly afterwards, it is stated a respectably dressed man accosted Kelly and offered her money. The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes."
Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888.

What intrigues me about this is that the man with "funny eyes" & "awkward gait", is believed to be the same man.
A suspect with peculiar eyes was seen by Bowyer in the court, and also seen at the Bricklayers Arms with Stride before she was murdered.
A man with an awkward gait as seen running away from the Chapman murder scene on the morning of her murder.

This BGB-man just may be the murderer.

Hi Wick

Ah, ok. You were suggesting the unnamed woman might have been Kelly, its clear now.

Is there anything that rules her out being mary?

Sure, we can go with BGB instead of BM if you find it shorter

thanks!

Because Hutchinson does not see Kelly out after she entered her room, it is Kennedy who confirms Kelly was back out on the streets about 3:00.

how does this kennedy know it was Mary Kelly?

same man"?
We seem to be at cross purposes, I wasnt talking about the loiterer & Hutch being the same - I'm sure they were.

my bad

I meant Lewis & Kennedy, no-one at the time believed they were the same.

so they were two separate women? who just happen to have the same experiences? please explain how they could be different people, Im having(and have always had) a real hard time accepting kennedy as a separate real person.

This BGB-man just may be the murderer

yes, he may. sounds a lot to me like the man marshall heard say-you would say anything but youre prayers-to stride.

[Wickerman]

Kennedy was either passing off Sarah Lewis's story as her own, the press got things wrong, or Lewis was using the name "Kennedy"... or some weird combination thereof.

You surely can't believe a second woman will memorize the entire details of the Wednesday night escapade, describing how they met the man, his description, what he said, where they went, etc.
Thats a script for play in itself. No-one goes to those lengths to get their 15 minutes of fame.

On the other hand, if Lewis was Kennedy, why offer different details for Friday morning?
Lewis saw one woman with the BGB before 2:30, and a loiterer in Dorset St. Yet, when posing as Kennedy she changes her story to two women, one of them Kelly, talking to the BGB about 3:00, yet no mention of a loiterer in Dorset St.

Their accounts of Wednesday are pretty much identical and, both claim to have been with another woman.
Yet their Friday morning stories have significant differences, and at that time they were both by themselves.

There is no way on God's earth that two separate women upped stumps to stay the night with relatives/friends in the room opposite Kelly's on the same bloody night within a short time of each other,...

Why wouldn't they, if, as they say, they were friends?
Friends often know when their counterpart is home, or is expected to arrive home.
Isn't it quite possible that Lewis set out for her friends home in Millers Court at the time she did because she knew roughly what time Kennedy was expected home?

[Wickerman]

One of the more problematic statements by both Lewis & Kennedy is their reference to each other.
Lewis calls the woman she was with on the Wednesday, "another female". Yet, Kennedy refers to her female companion as, "my sister".

Why does Kennedy call Lewis her "sister", yet Lewis refers to Kennedy as "another female"?

Perhaps this is a problem in our day because we reserve the title "sister" for a sibling, yet if we look in a dictionary more consistent with the late 19th century, it was common for a woman to call her close female friend, "sister".



However, this meaning is still retained in our modern dictionaries, though much less acknowledged in day-to-day conversation - sister, a close friend, not always a sibling.

[Abby Normal]

One of the more problematic statements by both Lewis & Kennedy is their reference to each other.
Lewis calls the woman she was with on the Wednesday, "another female". Yet, Kennedy refers to her female companion as, "my sister".

Why does Kennedy call Lewis her "sister", yet Lewis refers to Kennedy as "another female"?

Perhaps this is a problem in our day because we reserve the title "sister" for a sibling, yet if we look in a dictionary more consistent with the late 19th century, it was common for a woman to call her close female friend, "sister".



However, this meaning is still retained in our modern dictionaries, though much less acknowledged in day-to-day conversation - sister, a close friend, not always a sibling.

hi wick
Ok I think ive got your idea.

kennedy and lewis were friends and they were both together on the wed night sighing of the BGB-and refer to each other as the other woman/friend/sister they were with (but they are friends). And that they were apart on the night of marys murder, both going at different times to the same home in Millers court? do I have it right?

if so, which one "lived" at millers court? kennedy correct?
and or kennedys parents lived there? and lewis was going to stay with them ?