So what happened to that femur...?

[Sam Flynn]

If it had been sloppier done, I may have felt less inclined to see a purpose, but since it is shining white and spotless with no meat on it whatsoever, I´m fine with accepting that it fits the pattern I identify.

There's no "pattern" - if you remove the flesh from the thigh then the femur will appear white[*]. Besides, there is actually some meat on it, if you look carefully; little strips of muscle that flop over the bone.

[* Don't forget that we can't tell precisely how "shining white and spotless" it was from an old photograph.]

[Batman]

Are any of the participants in this debate medically schooled? I think Gareth has a degree in psychology (which is not à point to this debate, I believe) but how about Batman?

I am a biologist. BSc.

[Fisherman]

There's no "pattern" - if you remove the flesh from the thigh then the femur will appear white[*]. Besides, there is actually some meat on it, if you look carefully; little strips of muscle that flop over the bone.

[* Don't forget that we can't tell precisely how "shining white and spotless" it was from an old photograph.]

Whther there is a pattern or not is for each of us to decide. You don´t see one, I do, it´s as simple as that.

I am aware that the photo is old.

[Fisherman]

I am a biologist. BSc.

Close, but no cigar. My wife is also a biologist and she knows zilch about this matter.

[Batman]

But then again, it does not when we look at pictures of wolf prey, for example. There may be exceptions, of course, but many of the pictures of wolves devouring prey exhibit red bones with meat attaching to them.

That's because they are eating and not cutting. They are tearing with their paws and dentition.

Take an uncooked whole chicken and see if you can remove the meat with just your hands. You will get pretty far and pull chunks away from the bone quite cleanly even without a knife. If a dog got at the same chicken it would look more like something that been scavenging on it.

[Batman]

Close, but no cigar. My wife is also a biologist and she knows zilch about this matter.

It depends on the type of biologist one is. It is very broad. Some biologists may have a very limited understanding of say human biochemistry and human anatomy but a great understanding of plant biochemistry and plant anatomy.

This also goes for Medical scientists. Some have a limited understanding of pathology but a better understanding of cancer research.

[Fisherman]

That's because they are eating and not cutting. They are tearing with their paws and dentition.

Take an uncooked whole chicken and see if you can remove the meat with just your hands. You will get pretty far and pull chunks away from the bone quite cleanly even without a knife. If a dog got at the same chicken it would look more like something that been scavenging on it.

Apparently, you have never seen me eating.

[Fisherman]

It depends on the type of biologist one is. It is very broad. Some biologists may have a very limited understanding of say human biochemistry and human anatomy but a great understanding of plant biochemistry and plant anatomy.

This also goes for Medical scientists. Some have a limited understanding of pathology but a better understanding of cancer research.

I know that quite well too, Batman. I have it from my wife, who´s a broad. In Paris, to be more exact.

[Sam Flynn]

Whther there is a pattern or not is for each of us to decide. You don´t see one, I do, it´s as simple as that.

It's not really a question of "patterns". Remove the muscles from the thighs and you end up with a clean looking femur.

[Wickerman]

Correct, and the muscles themselves are bounded by sheaths; it's not as if they're "stuck" to the femur along its entire length. It wouldn't have taken much effort to get Kelly's leg looking like that.

Correct, each muscle is only attached to a bone at the ends, by tendons. Once the knife slices the tendon the muscle can fall away from the bone at one end.
I can only speak to stripping lamb, pork & beef but the human anatomy is just the same in that respect.
My first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice.

[Fisherman]

Okay, guys, thank you for your contribution. I take what you say on board, and I will speak to a medico somewhere in the future.

[Batman]

Okay, guys, thank you for your contribution. I take what you say on board, and I will speak to a medico somewhere in the future.

What I find interesting is that not only is there an overall lack of surgical skill, but a lack of butcher skills also.

Butchers don't even make such a mess like that. They have diagrams explaining which parts of an animal are cut away and how.

A slaughterhouse might be a little more appropriate.

However, I strongly doubt JtR worked in any such places or had that experience.

I doubt this because I think from Tabram to Kelly shows an escalation of experimenting with the signature and it seems he is learning when the body has been drained of blood so he can mutilate. I would think a slaughterer would have known that well before Chapman and yet he only appears to get to this point with Chapman to harvest her organs.

[Fisherman]

What I find interesting is that not only is there an overall lack of surgical skill, but a lack of butcher skills also.

Butchers don't even make such a mess like that. They have diagrams explaining which parts of an animal are cut away and how.

A slaughterhouse might be a little more appropriate.

However, I strongly doubt JtR worked in any such places or had that experience.

I doubt this because I think from Tabram to Kelly shows an escalation of experimenting with the signature and it seems he is learning when the body has been drained of blood so he can mutilate. I would think a slaughterer would have known that well before Chapman and yet he only appears to get to this point with Chapman to harvest her organs.

I don´t see the Kelly murder as messy. I believe it was highly organized and very controlled, and that the outcome was exactly what the killer was striving to achieve.

There will always be controversy about it. Some say that the killer was a masterful apprentice of Rudolf Wirchov, able to extract a heart according to the latest finds and methods of medicine, others say that it was nothing but mayhem and annihilation.
I think that of all the Ripper murders, this one is the strike that is clearest in disclosing the killers aims and inspiration grounds. And it really should be, given that this was where he had all the time in the world to get it right.

[Sam Flynn]

Butchers don't even make such a mess like that.

Absolutely correct.

A slaughterhouse might be a little more appropriate.

Except slaughtermen are much neater.

[Sam Flynn]

Correct, each muscle is only attached to a bone at the ends, by tendons. Once the knife slices the tendon the muscle can fall away from the bone at one end.
I can only speak to stripping lamb, pork & beef but the human anatomy is just the same in that respect.

Agreed, in every aspect.

My first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice.

Just as useful in this context as any medical opinion