If Mrs. Maxwell Didn't See Mary Who Did She See?

[Herlock Sholmes]

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=15280

Thanks Harry

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, that is exactly my point. It seems to have been an arbitrary decision by the police regarding an extremely important witness who could help fix the time of death if she was correct in her testimony. But far from trying to find a needle in a haystack they simply had to find an attractive, auburn haired 20 something young woman in the immediate area who could corroborate the conversation with Maxwell and thus prove that she was mistaken. Yet, as far as we know, that doesn't seem to have happened which seems rather odd.

Not sure about that, c.d....I don't think anyone (well, not me) is suggesting that there was a doppelganger of Kelly in the court that morning. More that the person Maxwell thought of as Mary Jane was someone else entirely, and always had been. If Maxwell had identified the body this theory would be out of the picture, but we don't know whether or not she did.

But as I said, the police seemed to accept she did indeed see Mary, but not on the morning in question. The few details she gives about her clothing do match those given by Cox.

The Evening News 10 Nov said;
"From the circumstantial character of Mrs. Maxwell's statement there is little doubt of its accuracy, and the police are now working on it in all directions."

Maybe one of these directions led them to doubt her sighting, over and above it's conflict with other evidence.

[c.d.]

I can only think of three possibilities for what took place regarding Maxwell's story:

1. The police simply dismissed her evidence and the vital information therein without any real effort to confirm it which would indicate pretty shoddy police work or;

2. They did manage to locate the woman she spoke to and thus confirmed that she had been mistaken and the record of this has been lost or;

3. Something (maybe something we are not aware of) convinced them that her story could be dismissed.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Joshua,

I didn't mean that the woman Maxwell saw had to be her spitting image but close enough (age, height, hair color) for the police to question her if she might have spoken with Maxwell that morning.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

I can only think of three possibilities for what took place regarding Maxwell's story:

1. The police simply dismissed her evidence and the vital information therein without any real effort to confirm it which would indicate pretty shoddy police work or;

2. They did manage to locate the woman she spoke to and thus confirmed that she had been mistaken and the record of this has been lost or;

3. Something (maybe something we are not aware of) convinced them that her story could be dismissed.

c.d.

You have missed of one other possibility and that is she got the day wrong !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Simon Wood]

Mrs Maxwell did not get the day wrong.

The Bishopsgate shopkeeper confirmed her purchase of milk on the morning of Friday 9th November.

[Simon Wood]

Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time the door was broken open.

And so, if as reported by The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it put the time of Kelly's death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am, six or seven hours after Dr. Bond’s estimation, and within a reasonable margin of error for Mrs. Maxwell's sighting.

[Wickerman]

Hello Joshua,

Yes, that is exactly my point. It seems to have been an arbitrary decision by the police regarding an extremely important witness who could help fix the time of death if she was correct in her testimony. But far from trying to find a needle in a haystack they simply had to find an attractive, auburn haired 20 something young woman in the immediate area who could corroborate the conversation with Maxwell and thus prove that she was mistaken. Yet, as far as we know, that doesn't seem to have happened which seems rather odd.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

We know no official paperwork has survived concerning the police investigation of the Kelly murder, especially over that first weekend.
So, we have no knowledge of what the opinion of Scotland Yard was, however that said, the press over that weekend published numerous accounts of Maxwell's sighting and more than a few (if you care to check?) offered a time for the murder after 9:00 am Friday morning.

Whether the police agreed with this we cannot know, but certainly the public must have due to the fact the press were their only source of opinion on this crime.

What I'm getting at is, the police may not have investigated Maxwell's claim to any great degree in part because of M. Lewis's apparent confirmation of her story.
I'm suggesting the investigation into her story to seek out another woman of similar appearance was not done because the police had no evidence to the contrary. Remember, they had no official time of death with which to contest Maxwell's story.
My guess is the police did believe Maxwell, in the short term at least.

Our confusion is because we are judging this issue based on what we know, not on what they knew at the time. This seems to be a frequent mistake by modern theorists.

[Wickerman]

I can only think of three possibilities for what took place regarding Maxwell's story:

1. The police simply dismissed her evidence and the vital information therein without any real effort to confirm it which would indicate pretty shoddy police work or;

2. They did manage to locate the woman she spoke to and thus confirmed that she had been mistaken and the record of this has been lost or;

3. Something (maybe something we are not aware of) convinced them that her story could be dismissed.

c.d.

Or 4. The police believed Maxwell.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I am sure I have read somewhere that Mrs Maxwell described Mary as having a kind of speech impediment. I can't recall anyone else saying this so maybe she didn't. And didn't she describe her as being small when other accounts have her as being, I think around five seven? if the Police checked on the speech impediment with Barnett etc and she didn't have one, it would be easier for them to discount the sighting as mistaken.

[Simon Wood]

If the police didn't believe Mrs Maxwell why did she appear at the inquest?

[Wickerman]

......

But as I said, the police seemed to accept she did indeed see Mary, but not on the morning in question. The few details she gives about her clothing do match those given by Cox.

The Evening News 10 Nov said;
"From the circumstantial character of Mrs. Maxwell's statement there is little doubt of its accuracy, and the police are now working on it in all directions."

Maybe one of these directions led them to doubt her sighting, over and above it's conflict with other evidence.

Precisely Joshua.
An alternative we tend to avoid today because Maxwell's sighting is typically ridiculed, so we believe the police also ridiculed her sighting.
This is probably an error on our part.

I think she was mistaken too, but it's what the police thought at the time that is important. And I believe what we know about this incident is consistent with the police believing both Maxwell & Lewis.
That only changed after the inquest, and after Hutchinson appeared.

[Wickerman]

If the police didn't believe Mrs Maxwell why did she appear at the inquest?

I'm sure you're right Simon, but if Maxwell offers a statement then the police will not reject it. It's not their job to decide.
And as we all know it is the Coroner who decides which witness is called for his inquest, not the police.

[Simon Wood]

Yes indeed, but the police advise the coroner.

[Joshua Rogan]

I am sure I have read somewhere that Mrs Maxwell described Mary as having a kind of speech impediment. I can't recall anyone else saying this so maybe she didn't. And didn't she describe her as being small when other accounts have her as being, I think around five seven? if the Police checked on the speech impediment with Barnett etc and she didn't have one, it would be easier for them to discount the sighting as mistaken.

Yes, Mrs Maxwell did indeed say she "spoke with a kind of impediment" according to the report in the Morning Advertiser and other papers (which may tally with Mrs Phoenix, who said she had two falso teeth, I believe). So in theory it should have been easy to check this with other witnesses. But she only seems to have said this in the press, not at the inquest or in her police statement, so whether this actually was checked is open to speculation.

She did also describe her as "a pleasant little woman" but whether this was describing her stature is not clear.