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If Mrs. Maxwell Didn't See Mary Who Did She See?

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  • "I have known deceased woman during the past 4 months, she was known as Mary Jane and (that) since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate..."

    I realise that the exact wording may not have been hers but, unless the statement taker was leading her much more than should have been the case, then the woman she knew as Mary Jane was the one left by Joseph Barnett. I don't see any grounds for assuming mistaken identity. It's not even strictly true that her evidence doesn't fit with that of other witnesses because it fits with that of Maurice Lewis. She knew Kelly; she claims she saw Kelly on the 9th and the 9th is confirmed as the date when she visited the shop on Bishopsgate.

    Once you accept that the method of ascertaining TOD in the LVP was approximate at best and that the injuries caused could have been inflicted in much less than Bond's 2 hour estimate then the evidence of Maxwell and Lewis assumes an importance which it has been denied for too long IMHO.
    Last edited by Bridewell; 07-10-2018, 11:06 AM.
    "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

    Comment


    • Just arguing against my own post for a moment, if Maxwell was being led by the statement taker and didn't know Joseph Barnett then her description of the man she saw with MJK becomes interesting because it could well fit him:

      "a man, age I think about 30, height about 5ft 5in, stout, dressed as a market porter".
      "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
        Just arguing against my own post for a moment, if Maxwell was being led by the statement taker and didn't know Joseph Barnett then her description of the man she saw with MJK becomes interesting because it could well fit him:

        "a man, age I think about 30, height about 5ft 5in, stout, dressed as a market porter".
        In some press statements she declared that she did know Joe Barnett, but she didn't know he had left Mary. Which calls into question how she could then say at the inquest that Mary had been supporting herself by prostitution since Joe left her. She also said that she didn't know Mary was an unfortunate, but that I think could easily be put down to not wanting to speak illl of the dead. Maxwell estimated the age of the man at Ringers as 50 in the press, not 30 as she said to the police and coroner.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
          So she woke to find that a woman she had seen just before she went to bed had been killed shortly thereafter. Why would she be mistaken about that - and if she was why was her recollection as to the day apparently corroborated by the shopkeeper?
          I can attest, from personal experience, that after working nights it's perfectly possible not to know what day of the week it is when you wake up, and thus inadvertently misinform the police when giving a witness statement during a murder investigation.
          So I have some sympathy for the idea that Maxwell was mistaken about the day she saw Mary. But I agree that the shop corrobotation would rule this out if it was the only day she visited that shop.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            a simple case of mistaken identity
            Yes, Abby. If there wasn’t something more sinister going on, then I think the person she saw was misidentified as MJK.

            Comment


            • Mrs. Maxwell gave her initial statement to the police on the day of the murder.
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                Mrs. Maxwell gave her initial statement to the police on the day of the murder.
                Chronologically, yes, but from a night-workers perspective a day lasts from when you wake up until when you go to sleep, so it's easy to become confused.
                "just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know..... I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                  Bond thought that the injuries to MJK would have taken at least 2 hours but a butcher who took that long to do something similar to the carcass of a pig wouldn't stay in business for very long. (That's perhaps a distasteful analogy but I think it has to be made). Bond was a doctor; JtR almost certainly was not.
                  Actually I am certain that he was MB London,FRCP,Physician and Lecturer on Pathology at London Hospital among other things and that Dr Phillips knew.

                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...4393-0040b.pdf

                  http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10974
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                    "I have known deceased woman during the past 4 months, she was known as Mary Jane and (that) since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate..."

                    I realise that the exact wording may not have been hers but, unless the statement taker was leading her much more than should have been the case, then the woman she knew as Mary Jane was the one left by Joseph Barnett. I don't see any grounds for assuming mistaken identity. It's not even strictly true that her evidence doesn't fit with that of other witnesses because it fits with that of Maurice Lewis. She knew Kelly; she claims she saw Kelly on the 9th and the 9th is confirmed as the date when she visited the shop on Bishopsgate.

                    Once you accept that the method of ascertaining TOD in the LVP was approximate at best and that the injuries caused could have been inflicted in much less than Bond's 2 hour estimate then the evidence of Maxwell and Lewis assumes an importance which it has been denied for too long IMHO.
                    Hi bridewell
                    If she really said that verbatim about Barnett and not being led or some other garbled nonsense, then I would chalk it up to who she thought was mary Kelly girlfriend of Barnett was someone else.

                    as in she had heard about that a Mary Kelly lived in the court and was seeing barnett and came to beleive it was the wrong woman. there were so many women coming and going from Marys room/court she could have easily mixed her up for someone else. plus didnt she say she only spoke to her a couple of times?over the course ov a couple months? very easy to get someone mixed up for someone else in those circs I would think.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                      Mrs Maxwell said she saw Mary on the morning of her death between 8 and 8:30, then again between 8:45 and 9 when she had moved just up Dorset St. So that is between 15 min and one hour she was stood on said street. Who else saw her? After all, she must have been quite popular engaging in first name conversation with people she hardly knew. Not only that but it is likely that if Mcarthy or perhaps Bowyer had seen her they would have said so. And she was stood outside the very shop of someone she owed back rent, and who was looking for said rent and almost certainly asked her for it if he saw her.
                      Assuming she met her killer that morning they would have had to have gone back to her room, again passing McCarthy's shop. She would have had to have gone into the court to undo the lock through the window, [nobody saw this happen]
                      And then the killer would have had to have killed her quickly [no scream, or sound], and left the room in broad daylight without anybody spotting him.
                      One last point, The Washington sniper was seen to shoot a victim from a white van by a witness before driving off, never happened.
                      And in the sad case of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, they were seen by a witness forcibly being driven off in the back of a car, again never happened.
                      Bingo Darryl
                      witness descriptions are very unreliable. especially someon like Maxwell who apparently didn't even know her "mary Kelly" very well having only spoken to her a couple of times. She was never in her room, like the other friends of Mary and seems to be only a slight acquaintance to whoever she thought was Mary anyway.
                      Last edited by Abby Normal; 07-10-2018, 01:42 PM.
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        I can attest, from personal experience, that after working nights it's perfectly possible not to know what day of the week it is when you wake up, and thus inadvertently misinform the police when giving a witness statement during a murder investigation.
                        So I have some sympathy for the idea that Maxwell was mistaken about the day she saw Mary. But I agree that the shop corrobotation would rule this out if it was the only day she visited that shop.
                        exactly JR
                        do we know how often she visited this shop?
                        what if she visited every morning or if not, every other morning-or even a lot.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • I mean folks look at Marys circs.

                          she was sick from drinking the night before, so she goes to to get some hair of the dog and vomits. shes really going to head back out to a pub, ill as she was, solicite a man for sex? I dont see it.

                          then theres the time frames-- all that above and bring the man back, stoke up the fire, get the clothes burnt, murdered, mutilated extensively and the killer to leave in mid morning without being seen?cmon.

                          Maxell saw someone whom she mistakenly thought was Mary. Its probably as simple as that.


                          didnt one witness say she heard a door close and the footsteps of a man leaving around 5 am? I bet that was the killer.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                            The notes that began ... "The body was lying naked in the middle of the bed,
                            Yes the crime scene notes :

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                              Chronologically, yes, but from a night-workers perspective a day lasts from when you wake up until when you go to sleep, so it's easy to become confused.
                              "just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know..... I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night."
                              But Joshua, if Maxwell had the day wrong, as she sat giving her statement to Abberline in Millers Court on Friday afternoon. Would'nt she be under the (false) impression that she saw Kelly yesterday?
                              And yesterday would be Thursday. Yet she didn't claim to see Kelly on Thursday.

                              I think the fact that Maxwell had slept between her sighting and her giving a statement works against the "wrong day" theory, not for it.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Maybe someone can clear the confusion. In the Pall Mall Gazette and Evening News Nov 10 editions, Mrs Maxwell claims to live at 26 Dorset Street:

                                "I assist my husband in his duties but we live next door, at No. 26 Dorset street."

                                So when she says:

                                "yesterday morning as I was going home, carrying my lantern and other things with me, I saw the woman Kelly standing at the entrance of the court."

                                In this case, wouldn't home indicate 26 Dorset Street, meaning Mrs Maxwell passed Mary Jane as she entered the court to reach her residence? Also meaning, she was detained with the other residents after the discovery of the body.

                                In the Times November 10th edition, Mrs Maxwell claims that she went for milk, which was verified with the milkshop. I don't know how many milkshops may have been in the immediate area; but, had Mary Jane had gone for milk (as suggested by Morris Lewis), wouldn't it have been more likely that Mary Jane would have gone to the same one as Mrs Maxwell and possibly seen/recognized/reported by someone working at the milkshop. My wonder is, did Morris Lewis mistake Caroline Maxwell for Mary Jane if Mrs Maxwell did in fact live at 26 Dorset St.?

                                * emphasis mine
                                ** on a side riddle, how did McCarthy see that both her ears were cut off when he peered through her window?
                                there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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