ORIGINAL doors in Miller's court

[DJA]

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiq9NHIysXZAhUHkpQKHSd3BfQQjRx6BAgAEAY&url=%2Furl%3Fsa%3Di%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dimages%26cd%3D%26ved%3D2ahUKEwiq9NHIysXZAhUHkpQKHSd3BfQQjRx6BAgAEAY%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fgfycat.com%252Fgifs%252Fdetail%252FOrganicElegantBlackrussianterrier%26psig%3DAOvVaw0CT1E9rHhIN6nVXk_QkXkz%26ust%3D1519803142550969&psig=AOvVaw0CT1E9rHhIN6nVXk_QkXkz&ust=1519803142550969

No. 20 overlooked Dorset St.
What "outhouse"?, the Ronan sketch shows the W/C where it stood in 1909, but in 1888 the W/C was at the other end of Millers Court, next to units 5/6.
This is also where the 1890 Goad Plan shows them.
The "shed" was beneath room 20, and opened up onto Dorset St. This is where McCarthy kept his wheelbarrows.



The attic over No.27, yes.



Three of those six chimney's could belong to next door, No.25 Dorset St.



The internal stairs would enter the next level inline with the partition for rm 13, that's all we can reasonably conclude. This is what Richard's 3D model indicated.

[richardh]

Jerry,
this is how #11 & #12 might have been laid out:
(YouTube)
https://youtu.be/qlqov49u_dM?t=11m13s

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

[jerryd]

Jerry,
this is how #11 & #12 might have been laid out:

Thanks Richard,

I think you are right on. Thanks very much. Your work is very good. Keep it up!

[richardh]

On the plan (below) we are told that #11/#12 is 12ft x 12.2ft




On Goad's, we can see #12 (marked red) and we can see #13 (marked green) as being longer than #12.





From this, can we say that #13 was at least 15ft from door to chimney wall?

I'm trying to get some detailed and accurate measurements of #13 and an experiment i did yesterday has thrown up some odd anomalies that I'm trying to figure out. For instance, it would seem that the BIG window of #13 is not central to the wall it's built into. The BIG window of #19 (above) is a mismatch and looks to be wider than the big window of #13. Also, the big window looks to be bigger than i thought in height - I thought it was about 5th high (sill to brick window arc) but now i make it to be 6ft). Also, this would mean that the ceiling height of #13 might have been closer to 10 ft high! - surely too high for a ceiling?
This would make the small window height and the door to #13 to be 7ft high - again surely too high for the door?

advice, please.

[Wickerman]

Hi Richard.

The Goad Plan of Dorset St. provides a dimension for the width of the street at 25 feet.
This image shows two and a half squares (in pencil) across the width of the street. Each square is 10 feet on each side.



If we superimpose two of those squares (in red) over Kelly's room we see that the depth of her room was close to 10 feet, but the width was 1 1/2 of those squares, so close to 15 feet.

We have press estimates of 12' x 12', and another at 15' x 12'.
The Goads Plan seems to confirm the 15' dim, but tends to suggest the 12' estimate was closer to 10'.

[Mark Hodgson]

Hi Richard.

The Goad Plan of Dorset St. provides a dimension for the width of the street at 25 feet.
This image shows two and a half squares (in pencil) across the width of the street. Each square is 10 feet on each side.



If we superimpose two of those squares (in red) over Kelly's room we see that the depth of her room was close to 10 feet, but the width was 1 1/2 of those squares, so close to 15 feet.

We have press estimates of 12' x 12', and another at 15' x 12'.
The Goads Plan seems to confirm the 15' dim, but tends to suggest the 12' estimate was closer to 10'.

I no longer believe that the 1890 Goad Plan is accurate in terms of dimensions. The line on the plan doesn't tally with the corresponding measurements made for the School Inspector's 'Wrack Report' of 1878. Most notably, when comparing the length of the covered passageway (26 feet 4 inches), to the length of the court (50 feet), the Goad Plan doesn't depict these dimensions in the correct ratio to each other.

The Goad Fire Inspector's Plan illustrates the layout of buildings and what the walls and roofs are made of, but it shouldn't be treated like an Ordnance Survey map, where each wall was accurately measured and drawn in proportion to each other.

Similarly, when the Goad Plan depicts breaks in walls for doors (like "Prater's door" off the court passageway, and the gap in the wall between the back of number 26 and Mary's room), these are just to denote there was a break somewhere in the wall with regards to fire risk, not how far along the wall they were. We know the boarded up door behind Mary's bed wasn't halfway along the wall, therefore the door off the passageway wasn't where it is shown on the map.

[Wickerman]

I no longer believe that the 1890 Goad Plan is accurate in terms of dimensions....

Are you talking about scale, or where specific dims. are noted?

Similarly, when the Goad Plan depicts breaks in walls for doors (like "Prater's door" off the court passageway, and the gap in the wall between the back of number 26 and Mary's room), these are just to denote there was a break somewhere in the wall with regards to fire risk, not how far along the wall they were. We know the boarded up door behind Mary's bed wasn't halfway along the wall, therefore the door off the passageway wasn't where it is shown on the map.

The Key table for those maps advises that a wall with a break is simply that, no scale is implied.

Can you elaborate on the problem you see with the location of Prater's door.
You'll notice Kelly's door is not even shown.

[Mark Hodgson]

Are you talking about scale, or where specific dims. are noted?

The Key table for those maps advises that a wall with a break is simply that, no scale is implied.

Can you elaborate on the problem you see with the location of Prater's door.
You'll notice Kelly's door is not even shown.

The only dimensions I can see on Goad's map are the width of the streets. The ratio of the given width of Dorset Street (25 feet) to the length of the covered passageway into Miller's Court (26 feet 4 inches) don't match, the two measurements differ by about two feet.

Similarly, the ratio of the covered passageway to the width of the north end of Miller's Court, the measurements differ by about a foot.

Comparing the same known dimensions (from the school inspector's report of 1878) to each other on the Ordnance Survey map of 1893, the ratios are far more consistent and accurate.

My conclusion is that Goad's map is a guide, but not a scale map. Perhaps the street widths were only noted for the access of fire fighters' vehicles. The lengths of walls weren't important.


Yes, Kelly's entry door is missing from the Goad map, but so are the front doors to the shops. My issue with "Prater's door" was that Goad's shorthand for any break in any wall is to annotate it halfway along the wall in question, regardless of actual position. See also the break in Kelly's "partition wall" - the gap is halfway along, regardless of where the boarded up door actually was.

Incidentally, why is there an entrance shown from the alleyway into number 26, but no similar entrance to number 27? Surely they'd have had a side door too?

[Christian]

Super interesting thread\post !!! When looking at the image of rear 26-27 prior to demolition June 1928 number 13 looks like a very crude extension looking at the windows above the sloping tiled roof - I read that prior to the 1850s the rear of 26 was just a gardened area?? Then all the cottages added!!! So was the door to the right of Mary’s head the original back door or a kitchen door??
sure no older Goad maps or plans exist to confirm any of these questions?? All very interesting anyhow!!