Millers court... A brothel?!

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
Was Harvey old enough to have an eight year old son?

Hi Joshua,

Here is what Wolf posted years ago.

Reynolds's Newspaper
11 November, 1888.

THE VICTIM OF AN IRISHMAN.
Further inquiries show that Kelly had no son. The boy who lived with her belonged to a woman with whom she was very friendly, and who stayed with her on several occasions. It is stated that it was the presence of this woman which caused the quarrel between Kelly and the man Barnett, with whom she had until recently lived....

The age has varied for this boy in the press reports. I seem to recall the boy was run over and killed in a later year but I might be confusing two stories.

[Debra A]

Hi Joshua,

Here is what Wolf posted years ago.

Reynolds's Newspaper
11 November, 1888.

THE VICTIM OF AN IRISHMAN.
Further inquiries show that Kelly had no son. The boy who lived with her belonged to a woman with whom she was very friendly, and who stayed with her on several occasions. It is stated that it was the presence of this woman which caused the quarrel between Kelly and the man Barnett, with whom she had until recently lived....

The age has varied for this boy in the press reports. I seem to recall the boy was run over and killed in a later year but I might be confusing two stories.

A boy named Harvey living in Dorset St being run over was something highlighted by Rosella here on Casebook to which I added a little bit of research I'd done from workhouse and Infirmary records on the only Maria Harvey I could find in the area. We don't have an age for Maria Harvey do we? Here's the bit of research anyway:

In the Raine St workhouse register of admissions and discharges for 4 separate occasions in Feb, March, April and July 1887 there is a Maria Harvey listed born in 1855, she was described as a washerwoman, destitute a Roman Catholic and as well as coming from the casual ward on one occasion she also gives an address of 18 Station Place. This address is repeated in the workhouse creed register.Station Place is just off Cornwall St St George in the East.
What's interesting about this Maria Harvey is that she has two sons; John born 1882 and William born 1884.

John appears in other Raine St workhouse records in 1890 where it is mention he has been sent to Leyton Roman Catholic School. Maria was in the SGE Infirmary at the time. I can't seem to find anything else for William.

Over on casebook, poster 'Rosella' mentioned a John Harvey aged six who was run over in Commercial Rd in June 1888. His address was given as Dorset Court, Dorset St Spitalfields.

[Michael W Richards]

"In Maria Harvey, the woman who had been compassionately taken in by Kelly, the Court had its one amusing witness. She was the Mrs. Gamp of the day, and when she and the Coroner got at loggerheads over the question as to whether certain articles of apparel were two shirts belonging to one man or one man's two shirts, there was general laughter at Mrs. Harvey's decisive dogmatism of manner."

In the Daily News, on November 13th.

Mrs Gamp referred to a Dickens character who is portrayed as dissolute, sloppy and generally drunk. She became a notorious stereotype of untrained and incompetent nurses of the early Victorian era. I posted this because it might offer some insight into the general disposition.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hmm....for some reason I've got Harvey as 19 in my head (or possibly 23). But I can't seem to find what made me think it, so could be confused.

[Debra A]

Hmm....for some reason I've got Harvey as 19 in my head (or possibly 23). But I can't seem to find what made me think it, so could be confused.

Is it because of the 15 year old Maria Harvey at Christian St SGE in 1881? I don't think she has been ruled out if so.

[Michael W Richards]

This is from Casebook Forums, posted by Chris Scott on July 21st, 2012 ...

"With regard to Maria Harvey, I thought I had lost these notes!
Way back when, as I was doing the work for the "Cast of Thousands" project, I did some work on Maria Harvey which, as it turned out, I did not use. For what it's worth below are the notes on the woman I considered at the time as the best bet to be Kelly's friend. This was only ever a possible and I make no definite claim that this IS her, only that it is a possible.

1891
65 Westmoreland Place, Hoxton
Head: Maria Harvey (Widow) aged 42 born Clerkenwell - Mangler (Wash)
Children:
Charles aged 23 born Islington - Stick dresser
Alfred aged 21 born Bow - Stick dresser
Caroline aged 18 born Clerkenwell - Machinist
Florette aged 15 born Clerkenwell - Envelope folder
Herbert aged 13 born Clerkenwell - Stick dresser's apprentice
William aged 10 born Hoxton
Lawrence aged 7 born Hoxton
Edith aged 4 born Hoxton
Brother: George Scott aged 38 born Islington - Stick dresser
The fortuitous presence of maria's brother tells us that her maiden name would have been Maria Scott.

Westmoreland Place is now named Westland Place and runs north off the City Road north-west of Old Street. At the northern end, Westland Place runs into Nile Street, one time street of residence of Henrietta, Joseph Fleming's mother.

The oldest child listed was 23 in 1891 so would have been born about 1868, so assuming all were legitimate, the marriage should be probably not long before this. In fact Maria married in 1865.
Church of St Philip, Clerkenwell
Date: 25 December 1865
Groom:
Name: Charles Harvey
Age: 23
Condition: Bachelor
Profession: Carver
Residence: 17 Green Terrace
Father's name: Joseph Harvey
Father's trade: Printer
Bride:
Name: Maria Scott
Age: 19
Condition: Spinster
Residence: 7 City Gardens
Father's name: William Scott
Father's trade: Watch finisher
Witnesses:
William Scott
Emma Thomas

Regarding the date of Maria becoming a widow, in 1891 the youngest child, Edith is listed as 4 years old, therefore born about 1887. Allowing for the term of the pregnancy, Charles Harvey could have died any time after about mid 1886. From the marriage record we know he was born in about 1842.
The only likely record is:-
Name: Charles Henry W Harvey
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1890
Age at Death: 47
Registration district: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London

Other addresses:
1881 census
27 Westmoreland Place, Hoxton

Prior to her marriage, Maria is listed as follows:-
1851 census
5 Brewer Street, Clerkenwell
Head: James Aldhouse aged 76 born Ipswich - Roadsman
Wife: Maria Aldhouse aged 68 born Ipswich
Son in law: William Scott aged 27 born St Lukes - Watchmaker and finisher
Daughter: Hannah Scott aged 24 born Hoxton
Grandchildren:
Hannah aged 6 born St Lukes
Maria aged 4 born Clerkenwell
William aged 1 born St Lukes

1861 census:
7 City Gardens, Islington
Head: William Scott aged 37 born St Lukes - Watch finisher
Wife: Hannah Scott aged 33 born Islington
Children:
Hannah aged 16 born St Lukes - Flower seller
Maria aged 14 born Clerkenwell
William aged 11 born St Lukes
George aged 8 born Islington
John aged 6 born Islington
Eliza aged 3 born Islington

This I believe to be Maria's death:
Name: Maria Harvey
Birth Date: abt 1847
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1933
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London

[Joshua Rogan]

I think I was mixing Harvey up with Lizzie Albrook.

[Debra A]

I think I was mixing Harvey up with Lizzie Albrook.

Ah, yes. She was about 19/20 you're right.