Millers court... A brothel?!

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Telegraph 10 Nov
Mrs Prater interview: it was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased.....Kelly was, she admitted, one of her own class, and she made no secret of her way of gaining a living

However, in the same paper, "The landlord emphatically disowns any knowledge of his tenement having been used for improper purposes"

And yet, the Daily News 10 Nov says;
"Mr. McCarthy, the proprietor of this shop, has no hesitation in avowing his knowledge that all his six houses were tenanted by women of a certain class. They were let out in separate rooms "furnished," that is to say, there is in each of them a bed and a table, and, perhaps, one or two odds and ends, all of the roughest and most trumpery description, since if any of the things had any appreciable value in the market they would be certain to disappear."

I think McCarthy would have been well aware of how the women of the court earned their rent money (at least on occasion), but turned a blind eye, for legal purposes and possibly more. He may even have seen himself as something of a benefactor - check out his defence of Dorset St a decade or so later;
http://www.casebook.org/victorian_lo...in-london.html

If Mcarthy was involved in the illicit goings on it would make sense, but would that mean that the 'rent' he was collecting was inflated and he wouldnt want his exploitation of the situation known.

[Joshua Rogan]

If Mcarthy was involved in the illicit goings on it would make sense, but would that mean that the 'rent' he was collecting was inflated and he wouldnt want his exploitation of the situation known.

I don't think McCarthy's rent demands were inflated. He was charging Mary and Joe 4 shillings and sixpence a week for a furnished room - less than 8 pence a night - which is actually cheaper than a double bed in a common lodging house. Plus he was prepared to let her get in arrears, when he could have simply evicted her. The possibility remains that he was exploiting his tenants somehow, but if so he seems to have kept his nose clean...or had friends in high places;

Irish Times 10 Nov
"Mr M'Carthy is spoken of by the police as a most respectable man, and was recently awarded a prize for collecting money for the hospitals. He is naturally much distressed at the terrible tragedy which has occurred literally at his door."

[MysterySinger]

I wouldn't necessarily label Miller's Court a brothel at all. There were far more people living there than are immediately apparent from the reports and this includes families. Suspect it wasn't much different to other similar courts around or other areas where accommodation needed to be cheap.

I would refer to you to previous discussions about the residents of Miller's Court which starts to provide lists of the residents as far as possible.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...=millers+court

[GUT]

Yes there are a few sources it isnt hidden knowledge. I think he even mentioned it himself at the inquiry. He was a fish porter (or something similar) and lost his job through theft in early August/September.

He may have given her money 'on occasion' but there is nothing to say he supported her fully. Knowing Mary was a prostitute is one thing, living in a small room with her and other prostitutes is another, it was probably the last straw for their relationship (they were known be be a volatile couple).

Maybe you could post the part of the inquest where Joe says he list his job because of theft.

[John Wheat]

Was Millers court a brothel?

Nearly every resident was a prostitute, Mary Kelly was known to let other girls stay/work with her and the other prostitutes living in the court might have let girls stay with them too. From the reports and resident interviews at the time it looks like prostitutes were still in abundance here for some years after. Seems like a lot of prostitutes residing/working from the same location. Is this a coincidence or was it a known place of prostitution?

Quite possibly. Does it matter? Does it get us any closer to solving the Ripper murders?

[GUT]

If it were a brothel, I can't think of a better place to find prostitutes, if that's what the killer was after.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Quite possibly. Does it matter? Does it get us any closer to solving the Ripper murders?

Yes of course it matters, It would mean that the resident's witness statements might not be reliable. If Mcarthy and his 'assistant' were involved in the goings (possibly pimping) on then they would have incriminated themselves by explaining everything that happened that night and the fact that they were the first on the scene would start to be more suspicious.

[The Good Michael]

It wasn't a brothel, though Mccarthy could have been a purveyor of a few of the women there. I believe there were 3 known prostitutes at the Court, maybe 4. I can't recall. Also, I don't believe that it is known why Barnett lost his job. In the inquiry as in the papers, it doesn't say.

Mike

[John Wheat]

Yes of course it matters, It would mean that the resident's witness statements might not be reliable. If Mcarthy and his 'assistant' were involved in the goings (possibly pimping) on then they would have incriminated themselves by explaining everything that happened that night and the fact that they were the first on the scene would start to be more suspicious.

Fair point although I don't believe knowing wether it was or wasn't a brothel gets us any closer to knowing who Jack was.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Fair point although I don't believe knowing wether it was or wasn't a brothel gets us any closer to knowing who Jack was.

It may or may not help getting any closer to who jack was but if we can conclude if millers court was a brothel then it would through a whole new light on the last murder (in my opinion).

Even if it doesn't get us any closer to finding out who jack was, If millers court was a brothel/pick-up place then its an interesting fact surrounding the case no one has really spoke about.

Not every thread's purpose is to solve the murder, casebook is a place where you can discuss anything about the case/places/people that you find interesting. Clearly others find this an interesting topic as its created a good discussion.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

It wasn't a brothel, though Mccarthy could have been a purveyor of a few of the women there. I believe there were 3 known prostitutes at the Court, maybe 4. I can't recall. Also, I don't believe that it is known why Barnett lost his job. In the inquiry as in the papers, it doesn't say.

Mike

There was more than 3 or 4 prostitutes at millers court, the ones we know for certain are Mary Kelly, Elizabeth Prater, Maria Harvey, Mary Ann Cox, Julia Venturney. We know Mary let other girls stay with her too. The other women around there had 'morally suspect' jobs such as flower sellers and such.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Even one of the prostitutes stated that on the night of Mary's murder she waited at the entrance of millers court for a man.

[c.d.]

Given the large number of prostitutes in Whitechapel there were probably a number of places like Millers Court which were not necessarily brothels but contained one or more women plying their trade.

c.d.

[John Wheat]

It may or may not help getting any closer to who jack was but if we can conclude if millers court was a brothel then it would through a whole new light on the last murder (in my opinion).

Even if it doesn't get us any closer to finding out who jack was, If millers court was a brothel/pick-up place then its an interesting fact surrounding the case no one has really spoke about.

Not every thread's purpose is to solve the murder, casebook is a place where you can discuss anything about the case/places/people that you find interesting. Clearly others find this an interesting topic as its created a good discussion.

I never said every threads purpose was to solve the crime. Nor that it wasn't an interesting discussion.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

I never said every threads purpose was to solve the crime. Nor that it wasn't an interesting discussion.

I know you didnt. The point you were making was knowing wether it was or wasn't a brothel doesnt get us any closer to knowing who Jack was. While that might be true, I was just saying identifying Jack wasnt the point of the thread. The point was to discuss this particular topic surrounding the case.