Mortuary Photographs

[Robert]

If he had left initials, would we have a song Jacky Ripper Said?

It was bad enough having Jocky Wilson said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ao9p3ou7-U

[John Bennett]

Sorry to butt in fellows but did not Stewart Evans dscuss a missing Kelly photo a while back from a collector he got a number of letters from?

Sorry if i'm getting this wrong..just sent bells in the back of my head.

No, you are right. Apparently the person in question claimed to have seen/owned some other photographic material relating to Kelly but could not find it. I can't remember his name, so this may be a good point at which to SPE to intervene...

[Robert]

It's here.

http://www.casebook.org/authors/interviews/stewart_evans.2.html

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Sam!

You mean, that there is "FM" on her face too?!

My God, a new clue; in that case Jack was a dis... das... dyslexic!

All the best
Jukka

Are you pooking fun at6 us akkuj?

[Jeff Leahy]

It's here.

http://www.casebook.org/authors/inte...t_evans.2.html

Cheers Robert I'll paste the interesting bit if you dont mind:

An intriguing footnote to all this was that on meeting Eric Barton at his home I found it to be a veritable "Aladdin's Cave." In telling the story of his purchase, Eric revealed that also with Sims' letters was a full set of the crime scene photos of Miller's Court and Mary Jane Kelly! He had never sold them and they were still in his home somewhere. I kept in contact with Eric hoping that he would find these photos which he said I could have. Unfortunately Eric died before the photographs were located. (It will be remembered that Sims was a friend of Macnaghten and it is from him that Sims undoubtedly obtained the photos).

Clearly Stewart believed that other photos existed. And from what is said it would appear probable.

Having spoken to a number of people I personally believe much still lays out there somewhere to be discovered..

Which is why I have always beleived a national crime museum would give a good focus for people to leave photos etc..

dont forgat that somewhere out there..still exists the original 'Lusk' letter and its DNA...not sealed in laminate hopefully.

Lots to discover.

Thanks Robert

Jeff

[Dan Norder]

Stewart posted many more details about this on these very boards not too long ago. I'm surprised people missed it. You can start with this post and read through the thread for additional information.

[perrymason]

There may indeed be a photo or two we might still see, but Im dubious as to whether it would add anything investigatorially...unless previously unknown information was visible in them.

Personally I think a photo after they had performed their "Volte Face", or reconstruction, would be more shocking than the room shots. In those, there are human features within an indistinct bloody mass, or mess,....but to see a human with the patchwork that would be needed...

I hope they dont find one like that, but I am morbidly curious as to what could have be done with her face.

Best regards

[Mayerling]

Cheers Robert I'll paste the interesting bit if you dont mind:

An intriguing footnote to all this was that on meeting Eric Barton at his home I found it to be a veritable "Aladdin's Cave." In telling the story of his purchase, Eric revealed that also with Sims' letters was a full set of the crime scene photos of Miller's Court and Mary Jane Kelly! He had never sold them and they were still in his home somewhere. I kept in contact with Eric hoping that he would find these photos which he said I could have. Unfortunately Eric died before the photographs were located. (It will be remembered that Sims was a friend of Macnaghten and it is from him that Sims undoubtedly obtained the photos).

Clearly Stewart believed that other photos existed. And from what is said it would appear probable.

Having spoken to a number of people I personally believe much still lays out there somewhere to be discovered..

Which is why I have always beleived a national crime museum would give a good focus for people to leave photos etc..

dont forgat that somewhere out there..still exists the original 'Lusk' letter and its DNA...not sealed in laminate hopefully.

Lots to discover.

Thanks Robert

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I like your idea of a National Crime Museum for Britain. Perhaps a lot of material would come out of the closet, so to speak.

Years ago I was using (for a non-Ripper article) FAMOUS CRIMES, that early 20th Century magazine. It had small subcolumns that dealt with odd bits about famous crimes, but also had letters from the readers. The authors of the letters were not revealed (the editor only put out their initials) and the letters were not fully printed. Quite a number turned out to be descendants of criminals. That magazine was published from 1901 to 1905.

One can imagine how much material on all criminal cases has been lost since then. It's true in every country. Two years back I read a book about the
Ruth Snyder - Judd Gray Case of 1927, and the author (who did a wonderful
job to be as complete as possible) admitted that much was thrown out over the years by the police - including transcripts of their interrogations of Ruth and Judd. And that was in my native Queens.

I have to admit that I agree with Phil about the horror a rediscovered photo of Mary Kelly's body in the morgue would bring. I have difficulties looking at the two photos of her body in the little room she died in. To me they remain the all-time worst attrocity pictures I have seen from peace time. I suspect some pictures from wartime (particularly of Nazi attrocities) would turn my stomach too.

However, anything can be rediscovered. Last week archeologists announced they found the location of George Washington's boyhood home in Virginia, and were preparing to establish the perameters of it with the intention of rebuilding it. If they could find Washington's birthplace, they can find other pictures and documents from the Ripper Case.

Personally I would still want to see the morgue photo of the dead Montague Druitt more than a "reconstructed" facial photo of Mary Kelly.

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Rob Clack]

The photos we have of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, McKenzie and Coles were taken for identification purposes, so there may be others showing there injuries. There was a photograph taken of Rose Mylett so there may be one of her still out there. Also probably of the Pinchin Street Torso. With Mary Kelly there may have been photographs taken after her post-mortem like there was for Catherine Eddowes.

Rob

[j.r-ahde]

Hellow Prate Jck!

QUOTE=Pirate Jack;28813]Are you pooking fun at6 us akkuj?[/QUOTE]


Hwat, pocking on dyslexics?! Beiing oen myshelf...

All the best
Jukka

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Rob!

The photos we have of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, McKenzie and Coles were taken for identification purposes, so there may be others showing there injuries. There was a photograph taken of Rose Mylett so there may be one of her still out there. Also probably of the Pinchin Street Torso. With Mary Kelly there may have been photographs taken after her post-mortem like there was for Catherine Eddowes.

Rob

In that sense it would be great indeed to see the after-post-mortem photos, that which one of us was closest, if any!

All the best
Jukka

[Fisherman]

As has often been pointed out, the fact that we have in situ crime pictures of Kelly, owes to the fact that the City police took photos for documentary rather than identification purposes.
From the material we have, I think that it is a fair guess that the picture of Kelly, taken from behind her bed, shows us that there once was other pictures out there. The full pic of Kelly on her bed was taken through a window, allowing for the photographer to get the whole body on one photo-plate, whereas that obviously could not be done operating from behind her bed. So what we are left with is the mid-section of Kelly. Surely the photographer must have taken at least two more pictures, one of the top part of the body, the other of the lower part, to get a complete documentation of the body from behind the bed.

The best,

Fisherman

[Rob Clack]

Well we don't know for certain the City Police took the photographs of Kelly. They were most likely taken by Joseph Martin who took the photos of the other Met Police victims. It would be interest if ghoulish to see a photo of Mary Kelly after her post mortem as we might get a reasonable idea of what she looked like. Also there were at least two photos of Tabram (same image on each) and two photos of the wide Mary kelly photo, so there may be multiple photographs of the other victims out there.

Rob

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Rob!

Yes, seeing a glimpse of her real face at last would be both thrilling and eerie!

But do you think, that it could also help to catch the real person behind the name/pseudonyme?! Meaning, also finding out about her real origins...

All the best
Jukka

[Jeff Leahy]

Well we don't know for certain the City Police took the photographs of Kelly. They were most likely taken by Joseph Martin who took the photos of the other Met Police victims. It would be interest if ghoulish to see a photo of Mary Kelly after her post mortem as we might get a reasonable idea of what she looked like. Also there were at least two photos of Tabram (same image on each) and two photos of the wide Mary kelly photo, so there may be multiple photographs of the other victims out there.

Rob

Hello Rob...just flicking through your book P132..but cant find any further info/ref on Joseph Martin. Was he employed by City Met or subcontracted?

Just wondering if he had his own studio or whether anyone had checked with the family for negatives?

just a thought

Jeff