Possible Mary Kelly Birth

[Pierre]

If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.

An Irish victim killed by an Irish killer.

People with social problems ended up in areas with social problems.

The terrible burden of the social world.

Cheers, Pierre

[DJA]

If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.

Maria Harvey, a friend, says that she was "much superior to that of most persons in her position in life.

Almost everything that is known about Mary Jane Kelly comes from Joseph Barnett, who lived with her just prior to the murder. He, of course, had all this information from Kelly herself. Some is conflicting and it may be suspected that some, or perhaps much of it, is embellished.

John McCarthy, landlord at Miller's Court, states that she received a letter from her mother in Ireland. Barnett says that she never corresponded with her family.


Clerkenwell is far enough to distance the family from Dorset Street.

Her parents would have been 69/70,if still alive.

Circumstances leading to Mary Kelly's downfall may have cut her off from family.

Ironically the earliest recorded use of Cockney comes from Piers Plowman, 1362.
So,we have Cockneys but no Juwes

My post was actually intended for Debra A.
Thought she might find an interest in having a serious look at it.

[MrBarnett]

Perhaps we are looking for the wrong faith in the wrong country.

My Mary Kelly was a local girl.
Church of England.

Mother Emma,father John.
Oldest brother John,hence Jno.
James.
Edward.
Henry.
Emma.
Mary Ann,hence fair Emma.

Pear Tree Court,Clerkenwell.

Hi DJA,

That Pear Tree Court was in Shoreditch rather than Clerkenwell. And Joseph Barnett's sister lived in Portpool Lane just off the Clerkenwell Road, so either way she woud have been taking a huge risk.

Gary

[Sam Flynn]

My post was actually intended for Debra A.
Thought she might find an interest in having a serious look at it.

I'm sure she will, Dave.

[DJA]

Hi DJA,

That Pear Tree Court was in Shoreditch rather than Clerkenwell. And Joseph Barnett's sister lived in Portpool Lane just off the Clerkenwell Road, so either way she woud have been taking a huge risk.

Gary

I had a look using Google Earth.
Close,but not too close.
Especially since she had long left home.

Honestly, some people here reckon CV5 didn't know each other,then everyone should have known Mary Kelly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE

Personally,I seriously doubt that people did not know what was really going on.

[Callmebill]

Didn't she speak Welsh?

Didn't she speak Welsh? Don't ask me who said she did - I've no idea - Unlikely skill for a Londoner.

[DJA]

Hi DJA,

That Pear Tree Court was in Shoreditch rather than Clerkenwell. And Joseph Barnett's sister lived in Portpool Lane just off the Clerkenwell Road, so either way she woud have been taking a huge risk.

Gary

Apparently Joseph moved in with the Beers at 17 Portpool Lane.
Don't know how long they'd been there.

John Kelly,Jno,married and was in Turville Street in 1881 Census.
That's the Old Nichol proper.
Went from carman to hawker.

[Sam Flynn]

Didn't she speak Welsh? Don't ask me who said she did - I've no idea - Unlikely skill for a Londoner.

An unnamed witness who spoke to the Daily News, as reported on 10th November 1888:

"Another girl states that she knew the deceased two years ago. She was then living at Cooney's lodging house in Thrawl street, Spitalfields. She walked the streets, and while living there met Barnett. She went to live with him in Dorset street. Kelly was a Welsh woman, and could speak Welsh fluently."

[MysterySinger]

By co-incidence in November 1887 a girl called Mary was living in Miller's Court and was shown in the workhouse entry as the widow of Wm. a miner. Yet this was still not our Mary. Mary A Newman lived at 4 Miller's Court and was born around 1858. It appears that this Mary survived beyond November 1888.

[DJA]

An unnamed witness who spoke to the Daily News, as reported on 10th November 1888:

"Another girl states that she knew the deceased two years ago. She was then living at Cooney's lodging house in Thrawl street, Spitalfields. She walked the streets, and while living there met Barnett. She went to live with him in Dorset street. Kelly was a Welsh woman, and could speak Welsh fluently."

17 Thrawl Street.

Nichols spent much of her last few weeks at 18 Thrawl Street.

Very close proximity to the London City Mission in Thrawl Street.
Free Sunday breakfasts.
Of interest to any budding CV.

Even Kidney resided at 12 Thrawl Street in 1889.

Almost as popular as Flower and Dean Street and Dorset Street

[Debra A]

My post was actually intended for Debra A.
Thought she might find an interest in having a serious look at it.

Sorry, Dave. I missed your post.

[DJA]

Sorry, Dave. I missed your post.

Reckon this is our Mary Kelly.

Turned up in the 1881 Census being treated for VD.

Oldest brother,Jno, married Louisa and lived in Turville Street during the 1881 Census.
Old Nichol.

Think a lot of Peartree Court slum was torn down and rebuilt early 1880s.




Mary A Kelly
England and Wales Census, 1861
Name Mary A Kelly
County London, Middlesex
Event Type Census
Event Date 1861
Event Place St Leonard Shoreditch, London, Middlesex, England
Ecclesiastical Parish St Leonard Shoreditch
Registration District Shoreditch
Residence Note Pear Tree Court
Gender Female
Age 2
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated) 1859
Birthplace Shoreditch, Middlesex
Page Number 11
Registration Number RG09
Piece/Folio 235 / 66
Affiliate Record Type Household
Household

Role

Sex

Age

Birthplace
John Kelly Head M 43 Bishopsgate, Middlesex
Emma Kelly Wife F 42 St Luke, Middlesex
John Kelly Son M 22 Shoreditch, Middlesex
James Kelly Son M 19 Shoreditch, Middlesex
Edward Kelly Son M 16 Shoreditch, Middlesex
Henry Kelly Son M 12 Shoreditch, Middlesex
Emma Kelly Daughter F 7 Shoreditch, Middlesex
Mary A Kelly Daughter F 2 Shoreditch, Middlesex
Images Available
To view these images you must do one of the following:

Sign in to Familysearch.org as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Access the site at a family history center.
At findmypast. By clicking here you will be leaving FamilySearch.org (fees and other terms may apply).

England and Wales Census, 1861
Household ID 331771
Line Number 9
GS Film Number 101816002
Digital Folder Number 101816002
Image Number 00132
Citing this Record

"England and Wales Census, 1861," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-WH98 : 27 September 2016), Mary A Kelly in household of John Kelly, St Leonard Shoreditch, London, Middlesex, England; from "1861 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 9, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.

[Debra A]

Okay. Thanks, Dave.

[MysterySinger]

Have previously looked at the family of Shoreditch Kellys (info is also on Ancestry and there are also some family tree connections on there). Aside from the name similarities it was hard to fit any of the other facts and/or tie down MAK as MJK so it is useful to see what others make of this one. More effort by experienced Ripperologists may pay dividends. They do seem to have baptism records so generally exact birth dates can be obtained easily online. Have been directing efforts elsewhere though.

[MysterySinger]

DJA - "Turned up in the 1881 Census being treated for VD".

Not sure I follow this though.