The clue of the coins

[RockySullivan]

Well to me the murders seem very organized and planned for instance I think the ripper knew mitre square well enough to know what window he had when no residents would be going in or out. Also I think the way the body parts were put over the shoulder appears somewhat compulsive. But I was wondering what the pills were....I think it's possible the ripper used datura/belladonna to turn victims into docile zombies. It can be blown into someone's face without them knowing. Very unlikely I know but it wouldn't show up on poison screenings I bet. Highly improbable that the ripper would know about this but d'onston might since he studied the occult. If the coins were polished....that's a sign of OCD in my opinion..

[Mr Lucky]

Well to me the murders seem very organized and planned for instance I think the ripper knew mitre square well enough to know what window he had when no residents would be going in or out. Also I think the way the body parts were put over the shoulder appears somewhat compulsive. But I was wondering what the pills were....I think it's possible the ripper used datura/belladonna to turn victims into docile zombies. It can be blown into someone's face without them knowing. Very unlikely I know but it wouldn't show up on poison screenings I bet. Highly improbable that the ripper would know about this but d'onston might since he studied the occult. If the coins were polished....that's a sign of OCD in my opinion..

Hi Rocky

I think the pills were recognised as Chapmans, also other drugs have been suggested before like chloroform and ether, but would the killer using them be a sign of OCD?

The polished farthings notion was an old scam - there are very hard to distinguish from gold half-sovereigns, it's a very profitable scam as a farthing is a quarter of a penny and a half-sovereign is 120 pennies.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky

I think the pills were recognised as Chapmans, also other drugs have been suggested before like chloroform and ether, but would the killer using them be a sign of OCD?

The polished farthings notion was an old scam - there are very hard to distinguish from gold half-sovereigns, it's a very profitable scam as a farthing is a quarter of a penny and a half-sovereign is 120 pennies.

I read on the chapman timeline that a fellow lodger had seen annie put the pills in an old scrap of envelope. Does anyone know what sussex regiment means? It's what was on the envelope. So chapman got the pills at the hospital...does anyone know why she went to the hospital?

So...Lucky...your saying the coins were fake?

I thought polished farthing meant the coins were literally polished. But if I'm understanding you correctly your saying they were slugs. So perhaps Chapman tried to pass off the fake coins to the wrong person?

[Mr Lucky]

I read on the chapman timeline that a fellow lodger had seen annie put the pills in an old scrap of envelope. Does anyone know what sussex regiment means? It's what was on the envelope. So chapman got the pills at the hospital...does anyone know why she went to the hospital?

So...Lucky...your saying the coins were fake?

I thought polished farthing meant the coins were literally polished. But if I'm understanding you correctly your saying they were slugs. So perhaps Chapman tried to pass off the fake coins to the wrong person?

It was just the address on the envelope, the police went down and checked it out. Chapman was in fact dying of an ailment this was unknown until the PM, however she was known to be ill.

No the coins are genuine - they are both a very similar size, but if the oxide is polished off the copper/bronze(depend on when they were made) farthing it looks similar to a gold half-sovereign, also any real scam would probably have more chance of succeeding if they showed a real gold half-sovereign and switch them at the last mo.

Generally the idea would be that the presence of the polished farthings at the scene would suggest she had fallen victim to the scam.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mr Lucky,

A mercantile point here.

Who would have risked arousing suspicion by trying to foist a bogus half sovereign on an old Whitechapel slapper when the going rate for a bit of rumpty-tumpty was less than sixpence?

Regards,

Simon

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky,

A mercantile point here.

Who would have risked arousing suspicion by trying to foist a bogus half sovereign on an old Whitechapel slapper when the going rate for a bit of rumpty-tumpty was less than sixpence?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

I have no idea, the coins don't exist anyway, so there isn't a need to create a person or a reason to give them to chapman anyway.

[RockySullivan]

Wait so the coins weren't at the crime scene? Were her other belongings arranged neatly like the comb and envelope

[Mr Lucky]

It's down to how the words at the inquest are interpreted.

[RockySullivan]

The more I learn the less I know. Anyway it's hard to imagine someone with OCD getting their jollies smearing around feces

[Wickerman]

The fact farthings were used in a scam was detailed by Magpie years ago.
Cases exist where this is a known fact, however, the cases involved the purchase of goods, not passing them off to an Unfortunate.
This is where fact has been mixed with fiction.
Half a sovereign was ten shillings, who in their right mind is going to offer that much to one of these women?

Polished farthings were passed off as half sovereigns in corner shops and for goods being purchased but never, as far as we know, offered to Unfortunates as a fee for services.

All we are talking about here is two farthings found in Chapman's pockets, and one farthing found under the body of McKenzie.

[RockySullivan]

If there were polished farthings...it's more likely chapman used them and someone came after her as a revenge rather than a john trying to pay her with him

[Wickerman]

IF, they were polished - yes.
Our only source on that aspect is the press and there they tell us they were polished. So if true, then yes Chapman was more likely passing them off herself rather than being in receipt of them for her services.

[Mr Lucky]

The fact farthings were used in a scam was detailed by Magpie years ago.
Cases exist where this is a known fact, however, the cases involved the purchase of goods, not passing them off to an Unfortunate.
This is where fact has been mixed with fiction.
Half a sovereign was ten shillings, who in their right mind is going to offer that much to one of these women?

The problem with this approach is the shop keeper is a legitimate business, if he is cheated in this way he can complain to the police, magistrates or even write letters to the press, etc - which all leave a trail of evidence. The unfortunate had no recourse to any of this, therefore - no trace remains, but doesn't this mean it never happened ?

Polished farthings were passed off as half sovereigns in corner shops and for goods being purchased but never, as far as we know, offered to Unfortunates as a fee for services.

Clearly, the readers of Lloyds were expected to accept this so why shouldn't we - "In the dress of the dead woman two farthings were found, so brightly polished as to lead to the belief that they were intended to be passed as half-sovereigns, and it is probable that they were given to her by the murderer as an inducement for her to accompany him." - Lloyds 9th Sept 1888

However, the Chapman polished farthing story appears to have its real origins in this story

"the man who gave the woman Emily Walton two brass medals, or bright farthings, as half sovereigns when in a yard of one of the houses in Hanbury street at 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, and who then began to ill use the woman. The police attach importance to finding the man, but it is not true that two farthings were found in the dress pocket of the murdered woman, which would have been an important corroboration of Walton's story." - Daily News 11 Sept 1888

[Wickerman]

The problem with this approach is the shop keeper is a legitimate business, if he is cheated in this way he can complain to the police, ......

I'm not sure what your objection is, the cases are available for all to read on the Old Bailey web site.

Clearly, the readers of Lloyds were expected to accept this so why shouldn't we - "In the dress of the dead woman two farthings were found, so brightly polished as to lead to the belief that they were intended to be passed as half-sovereigns, and it is probable that they were given to her by the murderer as an inducement for her to accompany him." - Lloyds 9th Sept 1888

However, the Chapman polished farthing story appears to have its real origins in this story

"the man who gave the woman Emily Walton two brass medals, or bright farthings, as half sovereigns when in a yard of one of the houses in Hanbury street at 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, and who then began to ill use the woman. The police attach importance to finding the man, but it is not true that two farthings were found in the dress pocket of the murdered woman, which would have been an important corroboration of Walton's story." - Daily News 11 Sept 1888

If you notice, this report combines fact with speculation.
The man apparently did exist, but what is the connection between his activity and the farthings found with Chapman?
That is where the speculation comes in.

Then we have:
"In another instance of this kind - the Hanbury-street murder - two similar farthings were found."
Insp. Reid, Inquest testimony on the body of Alice McKenzie.

An Inspector giving evidence at an Inquest is not relying on newspaper speculations, he deals with evidence directly from police sources.

[Mr Lucky]

I'm not sure what your objection is, the cases are available for all to read on the Old Bailey web site.

? The prostitute is not protected by the law, so it doesn't make it to trial so there is no record - that's the point I'm making - so you can't prove me wrong by claiming there is no record

If you notice, this report combines fact with speculation.
The man apparently did exist, but what is the connection between his activity and the farthings found with Chapman?
That is where the speculation comes in.

Yes, but the 'speculation' part is that there were polished farthings found on Chapman

Then we have:
"In another instance of this kind - the Hanbury-street murder - two similar farthings were found."
Insp. Reid, Inquest testimony on the body of Alice McKenzie.

An Inspector giving evidence at an Inquest is not relying on newspaper speculations, he deals with evidence directly from police sources.

That's the whole point, he is relying on newspaper reports - he must be because that is the source for this information not the police reports, and this actually makes sense as Reid had nothing to do with Chapman's murder as he was on leave. - he would have been reading about it in the paper the same as every one else.

This is the whole point, his understanding of the Chapman crime scene is that of the general publics. The fact he think there were farthing found there is proof of this, its not proof that the farthing were actually there at the chapman murder.