The clue of the coins

[MayBea]

1) The whole point of this is that the reference to coins appeared BEFORE the Chapman murder, so could not have been influenced by reports of coins at that crime scene (which I now understand were false).

It does seem that you must have been thinking of the 'rings' from the Times of September 4.

Regarding the "legendary" coins of the Chapman scene though, I still see no reason to believe that two farthings were definitely not arranged near Chapman's body.

The Evening Standard reported a list of her possessions, the same day but prior to the Chapman inquest, which included "a handkerchief, two small combs, two polished farthings, and an envelope stamped "the Sussex Regiment."

Did they get everything right except for the coins?

[Wickerman]

Hello Don. Thanks.

Yes, those stories are not true. I think the rumour had them as two farthings?

Stewart Evans debunked that nonsense in "The Ultimate."

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Do you have a page number for that?

I would also be interested in how Insp. Reid's recollections are explained away.

[Magpie]

There's an article in Ripperologist a couple of years back called "A Tale of Two Farthings" that might shed some light.

[MayBea]

Magpie,

Do you have anything written prior to the Diary book?

This is from Mindhunter published in 1995, so likely written before, with the research coming from John Douglas' work on his 1988 report and appearance on TV.

Two farthing coins were also near the body, though this detail was kept secret by the police to help qualify suspects.

- See more at: http://books.simonandschuster.com/Ca....HvhtmZoi.dpuf

[Magpie]

Sorry, not to hand.

the Ripperologist issue is #78 for anyone interested

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi donpayasos

Personally, I have never come across any press statements that money was found on or near Nichols.

If you have managed to find a press article that did mention this, particularly pre- Chapman murder, then that would be a very significant find, as far as an attempt to understand the contemporary narrative goes.

For those who don't know, Mr. Lucky has studied more Nichols press reports than most of us. If he hasn't seen it, it ain't there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

49

Hello Jon. Thanks. Try p. 49.

Cheers.
LC

[pinkmoon]

Nichols possessions

general reports - comb and a broken mirror
some other reports (Neil's testimony) - pocket handkerchief
Echo - soap

There were also some early reports that had claimed that she had been robbed of her rings, these were latter denied.

What colour shawl was she wearing?

[Donpayasos]

coins/rings/Times

Hi Donpayasos
Are you sure that it was the Times?
Are you sure that it was between the Nichols/Chapman murders?

I can't be 100% sure it was The Times because the National Library of Scotland had two sets of newspapers from the period on microfiche and I trawled through both. I can't remember what the other one was. I certainly committed it to memory as being The Times, but at this distance it's hard to be 100%.

I *am* pretty certain that it was before the Chapman murder because that's what struck me. A reference to coins or rings being laid out neatly at the Nichols crime scene would be easily explained if it ran after Chapman's death -- simply a case of the kind of inaccurate reporting that the British press has alays been full of. But appearing before the Chapman killing means it couldn't have been a mostake, unless it was a weirdly prophetic one foreshadowing the later crime scene.

What were the other papers covering the case? Maybe it will jog my decaying memory.

The only other thing I seem to remember was that the piece wasn't written when the Nichols murder was breaking news, but a few days or more afterwards.

[RockySullivan]

I find it very interesting that the rings were taken as trophies by the ripper. And the pills also stand out to me. What were the pills for? Annie had got them on a recent visit to the hospital...this would be London hospital I presume? So did the killer take out the pills and place them by the body? So where chapmans items arranged neatly by her body and if so does this show OCD on jacks part?

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Don

I can't be 100% sure it was The Times because the National Library of Scotland had two sets of newspapers from the period on microfiche and I trawled through both. I can't remember what the other one was. I certainly committed it to memory as being The Times, but at this distance it's hard to be 100%.

Can't you contact them and ask? perhaps at the actual location you used might be best, rather than the head office.

I *am* pretty certain that it was before the Chapman murder because that's what struck me. A reference to coins or rings being laid out neatly at the Nichols crime scene would be easily explained if it ran after Chapman's death -- simply a case of the kind of inaccurate reporting that the British press has alays been full of. But appearing before the Chapman killing means it couldn't have been a mostake, unless it was a weirdly prophetic one foreshadowing the later crime scene.

Well, that's it really, that why I'm interested - partially due to the idea of the 'copy-cat' killer vs the 'narrative-driven' killer. The press are largely just repeating what they have been told - it's not necessary inaccurate reporting just inaccurate information so it's important to try to find the source of the information and date it's first appearance.

Whether the info is inaccurate or not isn't important as far as testing the hypothesis that a particular murder was done by a copy-cat killer - as he wouldn't know that either - he would assume the info in the press was accurate.

What were the other papers covering the case? Maybe it will jog my decaying memory.

The only other thing I seem to remember was that the piece wasn't written when the Nichols murder was breaking news, but a few days or more afterwards.

Loads of other papers - I would say nearly all.
Very little appeared after the second day of the Inquest which was reported on the 3rd and 4th Sept., most of which can be seen using the calendar feature on the press section to the left.

[Mr Lucky]

What colour shawl was she wearing?

Hi Pink,

Ah, the mysterious shawl ;- those who saw it actually describe it as looking like a 'pair of cricketers y-fronts' , they were lost on route to the mortuary never to be seen again, if found they could be worth their weight in jellybeans to anyone carrying the so-called gullibility gene - 'JckRip1'

[Mr Lucky]

I find it very interesting that the rings were taken as trophies by the ripper. And the pills also stand out to me. What were the pills for? Annie had got them on a recent visit to the hospital...this would be London hospital I presume? So did the killer take out the pills and place them by the body? So where chapmans items arranged neatly by her body and if so does this show OCD on jacks part?

Hi Rocky

Coroner Baxter described all this as a 'thin veiled blind' to hide the real reason for the crime - the organ theft

[RockySullivan]

Do you think the pills had anything to do with the "organ-theft"

[Mr Lucky]

Do you think the pills had anything to do with the "organ-theft"

Hi Rocky

Me personally? - I think Baxter is half right - it is a blind or a distraction, but so is everything else, not just the pills but the whole business , the organ theft, the murder itself and in fact the whole autumn of terror it's all just a distraction.

Basically that's why the killings are so odd in general.

What other aspects to the killing do put down to OCD?