How long after the carmen left Nichols could Neil have arrived?

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Whether that’s still Christer’s preferred route or not, it doesn’t fit with several pieces of evidence. Here’s the route (in dark blue) cutting through the southern part of Thomas Street.



What stands out, of course, is this route doesn’t fit with the route as it’s described in the Echo of September 21 as it doesn’t include the red part.

Also, we see that the dark blue route is about 1.25 km/0.78 miles long. Walked at a speed of 3 miles/4.8 km an hour would only take some 15-16 minutes to cover, which would be about 15 minutes shorter than the approximate 30 minutes that Neil stated it took him to complete his beat.

Then, it also doesn’t fit with something Neil deposed at the inquest. He stated: “A quarter of an hour previously he was in Whitechapel road, where he saw some people apparently going to market, and some women.”

Walking at a speed of 3 m/4.8 km an hour, Neil would have covered about 0.75 m/1.2 km in 15 minutes. So, if we were to count this distance back from the crime spot following the dark blue route, then we’d end up almost at the crime spot again. But nowhere on Whitechapel Road.

So, it’s really quite unlikely, in my veiw, that Neil missed the carmen while taking this route.

All the best,
Frank

Agree with you completely Frank, Neil also.said he had gone no further than Bakers Row, which I take to mean that was how far west he went.
Of course I have been told several times that he probably only went that far very occasionally, cutting out about half of his beat most rounds.

That level of manipulation and speculation, contrary to the evidence of Neil and the Echo is simply too much to be taken seriously.. Look at the option of course, as I have done in IBR, and you have done, then give the reasons, for rejecting it.

Steve

[FrankO]

Christer prefers one route entering Bucks Row via Thomas Street from the south. There are however other routes for his beat, which may involve him entering from the North, possibly still via Thomas St.

Neil himself does not tell us his exact beat, or if he entered from the North or the South.

Hi Steve,

Whether that’s still Christer’s preferred route or not, it doesn’t fit with several pieces of evidence. Here’s the route (in dark blue) cutting through the southern part of Thomas Street.



What stands out, of course, is this route doesn’t fit with the route as it’s described in the Echo of September 21 as it doesn’t include the red part.

Also, we see that the dark blue route is about 1.25 km/0.78 miles long. Walked at a speed of 3 miles/4.8 km an hour would only take some 15-16 minutes to cover, which would be about 15 minutes shorter than the approximate 30 minutes that Neil stated it took him to complete his beat.

Then, it also doesn’t fit with something Neil deposed at the inquest. He stated: “A quarter of an hour previously he was in Whitechapel road, where he saw some people apparently going to market, and some women.”

Walking at a speed of 3 m/4.8 km an hour, Neil would have covered about 0.75 m/1.2 km in 15 minutes. So, if we were to count this distance back from the crime spot following the dark blue route, then we’d end up almost at the crime spot again. But nowhere on Whitechapel Road.

So, it’s really quite unlikely, in my veiw, that Neil missed the carmen while taking this route.

All the best,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

The possible route or rather routes, takes up 2 chapters , otherwise I would post the details here.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Now that must have taken some time and effort! Well done.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Is this what you are remembering?

PC Neil's Route - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

Hi rj,

No, that's not the one I'm thinking of, but it's a good thread that I don't think I've seen. Will have a good read of it though. Thanks.

- Jeff

[Elamarna]

The possible route or rather routes, takes up 2 chapters , otherwise I would post the details here.

Steve

[rjpalmer]

A couple of years ago now I think there was a fair bit of discussion around PC Neil's route.

Is this what you are remembering?

PC Neil's Route - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Mark J D]

Thanks for the helpful replies, folks. It's a shame this site isn't more easily searchable, given the amount of detailed work that has been done on so many topics.

M.

[JeffHamm]

Thanks for this.

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

M.

A couple of years ago now I think there was a fair bit of discussion around PC Neil's route. Obviously, as with everything, there are ambiguities and no final route should be viewed as definitive. The attempt was to combine as much information as was available to try and constrain things to routes that met certain requirements (it's been awhile, so I won't risk relying on memory to try and recreate the discussion). Anyway, Steve had done a lot of the work, and his book contains a number of variations. When I was playing around with the simulations, I tried various routes, and in the end, the same pattern would emerge regardless with only irrelevant variations in exact details (where exactly it places PC Neil is not so important if in all cases he ends up out of view of Cross/Lechmere and Paul as they leave the area). My recollection is that most of the ambiguity had to do with the north-west corner of the route, near the end of the patrol before he finds Nichols, and how he covered that section.

I don't, however, recall a route that had him coming up from the south before turning in and finding the body though? That would be an interesting one to play with. That doesn't mean it wasn't discussed, of course, as I sometimes don't recall breakfast! It is possible that such a route didn't fit some of the other constraints being applied, or the memory of has become lost in the discussion of the multiple routes that have him coming from the north and so I just don't recall it now. Anyway, there was a fair bit of discussion at the time, and I think it was around the time when Steve's book was first being published (maybe just before it came out?), which might help. I think it is in one of the Cross/Lechmere threads, and was one of those topics that came up rather than being the point of the original post per se. And, in all likelihood, is buried deep in it. Sorry I can't be of more help in pointing you to the discussion's location than that, but as I say, it was awhile ago.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

The OP would be a good place to start looking. Here's a good map and the rest is something you'll have to figure out for yourself, route-wise.

[Elamarna]

Thanks for this.

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

M.

I think Jeff may have listed some, I have them all in my book of course.

The routes are based on an article in the Echo on 21st September

"“the third constable would commence at Brady Street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker’s row, Thomas Street, Queen Anne Street, and Buck’s row, to Brady Street, and all the interior, thisconsisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c.”

Neil himself said he went as far as Bakers Row and that he was also in Winthrop at around 3.20 when he saw the slaughtermen.

Steve

[Mark J D]

We do indeed Mark,
Christer prefers one route entering Bucks Row via Thomas Street from the south. There are however other routes for his beat, which may involve him entering from the North, possibly still via Thomas St.

Neil himself does not tell us his exact beat, or if he entered from the North or the South.

Thanks for this.

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

M.

[Elamarna]

Hi Christer,

Does the above mean we have conflicting sources about the precise route PC Niel took into Buck's Row?

Sorry if this is in your book; I keep lending my copy to people who then lend it to other people, so I don't even know who has it at the moment. (Lechmere really catches on...)

M.

We do indeed Mark,
Christer prefers one route entering Bucks Row via Thomas Street from the south. There are however other routes for his beat, which may involve him entering from the North, possibly still via Thomas St.

Neil himself does not tell us his exact beat, or if he entered from the North or the South.

Steve

[Mark J D]

I am always working from the idea that Neil entered Bucks Row from Thomas Street and walked towards Brady Street, the way it is laid down in for example the Daily News and the East London Observer, if I remember correctly.
This is all laid out in detail in Cutting Point.

Hi Christer,

Does the above mean we have conflicting sources about the precise route PC Niel took into Buck's Row?

Sorry if this is in your book; I keep lending my copy to people who then lend it to other people, so I don't even know who has it at the moment. (Lechmere really catches on...)

M.

[FrankO]

In the end, this sort of analysis isn't about trying to get every detail of time and space exactly right, but rather, to get an idea of plausible ranges.

Hi Jeff,

Yah (I like that word, almost the same as our Dutch 'ja' for 'yes'), the above is really spot on, exactly what I had wanted to write. Thanks for your comment and compliment.

Cheers,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

Thanks for your response, Steve. It's indeed good to know that we've reached very similar conclusions independently of one another. I in fact haven't got your book (yet), but wasn't aware that either you or Jeff had already done the same sort of exercise to get some better idea of how Neil could have missed the carmen & vice versa and how much time passed since they'd left Nichols. Although I could have expected you both to have done such a thing. Good that you're updating your book every now & then!

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

As Steve has said, you've come to very similar conclusions. There are a number of parameters one has to make calls on, such as the exact beat, the patrol speed, and so forth, so it is good to see that despite the fact we all have to make our own choices, the end results are all telling the same general story. That adds to the robustness of the finding, demonstrating that the outcome isn't a result of picking and choosing specific values just to make them work. In the end, this sort of analysis isn't about trying to get every detail of time and space exactly right, but rather, to get an idea of plausible ranges. Given our starting data has some holes in it, I'm actually impressed at just how similar the outcomes tend to be. Well done.

- Jeff