Time of death/mutilations

[Aethelwulf]

Is there a consensus/generally accepted description of the injuries suffered by Nicholls anywhere?

[Fernglas]

add to that skirt raised, victimology and fits escalation to a T. She was very likely also a ripper victim.

That is actually an important point here, Abby, the staging of the victim. While we have to be careful to go by "modern" murders, posing/staging a victim is surprisingly rare seen across all murder cases. Here in Germany we have an old murder series in two different regions, who were already linked in the 70s to the same killer due (among other things) to the extremly distinctive way the victims were posed after the murders.

In my opinion, Tabram is more likely the "Victim One" than not. We cannot be completely sure, but it is the combination of facts which hint towards an early Jack committing this murder. We have an, at least parttime, prostitute in a dark corner, but to a certain degree still in the open (meaning not in a closed room) stabbed to death, then definitely posed, since the position the victim was in when found was not a natural one after the deadly assault.
Definite Piquerism of any kind in combination with staging the victim afterwards is really, really rare!

[FISHY1118]

As I've researched for over 40 years I have a fair understanding of all the possible/probable victims. Unlike yourself who says Tabram 's murder has a 'different weapon' when medical evidence suggests TWO weapons. Do your own research. Further, Geographical Profiling by KIm Rossmo places Tabram as the likely first victim as does David Canter's profiling. I tend to place value on two modern day professors who are expert in criminal behaviour but I'd like to hear which experts opine that Tabram can be ruled out as a victim.

MacNaghten wasn't an investigting officer before or during the Ripper murders. He was a desk-bound appointee after the murders had ceased. His opinion parrots Bond's original 5 victims and his views are valueless if you consider his naming of suspects based on hearsay and proveably false accusations. You need better sources.

Well your only about 2 years behind me ,so I'd say you have some catching up to do ,

Two different weapons that both didn't fit the weapon suspected used in the c5 ..so you should research a little more, as far as profiler go they mean Jake shite in this case .if you've studied the case for 40 years you'd know this .

[Abby Normal]

Usually people who have a suspect or theory that necessitates five and only five victims. If you look at Tabram and the C5 they aren't really very different. Approach and methods are similar - woman goes willingly to a dark quite corner. Possible blow to the head, probable strangulation, extreme knife wounds. Wounds to lower body including groin areas. Location and time of attack fit with others.

add to that skirt raised, victimology and fits escalation to a T. She was very likely also a ripper victim.

[Aethelwulf]

but I'd like to hear which experts opine that Tabram can be ruled out as a victim.

Usually people who have a suspect or theory that necessitates five and only five victims. If you look at Tabram and the C5 they aren't really very different. Approach and methods are similar - woman goes willingly to a dark quite corner. Possible blow to the head, probable strangulation, extreme knife wounds. Wounds to lower body including groin areas. Location and time of attack fit with others.

[John Trent]

I think you'll find upon further research that Martha Tabram wasn't a ripper victim.

Different method

Different weapon

The investigating police at the time didn't think she was either..

Sir Melville Macnaghten "there were 5 ripper murders and 5 ONLY ".

As I've researched for over 40 years I have a fair understanding of all the possible/probable victims. Unlike yourself who says Tabram 's murder has a 'different weapon' when medical evidence suggests TWO weapons. Do your own research. Further, Geographical Profiling by KIm Rossmo places Tabram as the likely first victim as does David Canter's profiling. I tend to place value on two modern day professors who are expert in criminal behaviour but I'd like to hear which experts opine that Tabram can be ruled out as a victim.

MacNaghten wasn't an investigting officer before or during the Ripper murders. He was a desk-bound appointee after the murders had ceased. His opinion parrots Bond's original 5 victims and his views are valueless if you consider his naming of suspects based on hearsay and proveably false accusations. You need better sources.

[Damaso Marte]

But even within the canonical 5 there are differences in MO. Nichols and Chapman had their throats cut twice, the others only once. Facial mutilations only show up in Eddowes and Kelly. Nichols mutilations are more like stab wounds than the others. If you believe the canonical 5 were all killed by the same person (as I do), you must accept that a killer can change their MO over a series of murders. From there it's just a question of what degree of change you consider plausible and reasonable people can disagree.

To me, it's plausible that Tabram may have been his first murder, and he decided "you know, these knives and that stabbing really didn't give me the satisfaction I was looking for, I need to try something else next time"

[FISHY1118]

Melville Macnaghten thought Ostrog a viable ripper suspect - he was imprisoned in France during murders. Shows what he knew! People put far too much faith in the opinions of top officials in this case. Look at Anderson and his comments on the Mylet case.

Doesn't mean there wasn't 5 murders only tho does it. Different m.o and Different weapon very unlikely she was a ripper victim

[Aethelwulf]

Sir Melville Macnaghten "there were 5 ripper murders and 5 ONLY ".

Melville Macnaghten thought Ostrog a viable ripper suspect - he was imprisoned in France during murders. Shows what he knew! People put far too much faith in the opinions of top officials in this case. Look at Anderson and his comments on the Mylet case.

[FISHY1118]

Why would he have a fully formed MO? If Tabram was his first attempt, and I find that very likely, then it is perfectly possible to think that he waited for some time before attacking again and there is plainly an escalation in mutilation/organ removal as the cases progressed thereafter. I don't think the torso murders have the slightest link with the Ripper murders despite the recent book that attempts to link them.

I think you'll find upon further research that Martha Tabram wasn't a ripper victim.

Different method

Different weapon

The investigating police at the time didn't think she was either..

Sir Melville Macnaghten "there were 5 ripper murders and 5 ONLY ".

[John Trent]

But three weeks is enough for JTR to show up with his MO fully formed?

I would expect to see more similarities between Tabram and Nichols if it was the same killer. Apart from the victim profile and location, there aren't many. Even the murder weapon was not the same.

As for what happened to Tabram's killer. Who knows? Not all murderers are serialists. I speculated before that he might have been a non-local who was visiting for the Bank Holiday. How do we know it wasn't Tabram's murder that inspired JTR? And I know I've said it before, the fact the Thames Torso victims didn't have any frenzied stab wounds is problematic for that particular theory.

Why would he have a fully formed MO? If Tabram was his first attempt, and I find that very likely, then it is perfectly possible to think that he waited for some time before attacking again and there is plainly an escalation in mutilation/organ removal as the cases progressed thereafter. I don't think the torso murders have the slightest link with the Ripper murders despite the recent book that attempts to link them.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
Fair enough but I disagree. The similarities between Tabram and the others far out weigh the differences for me. And like I said it seems like a natural escalation/progression from stabbing to ripping as the ripper learned how to perfect his technique and what and how he wanted to achieve with his sick fantasy.
and if they were two different creatures, where did this piquerist go? he just happened to disappear right before the ripper just happened to show up on the scene, MO fully formed? highly unlikely IMHO.

But three weeks is enough for JTR to show up with his MO fully formed?

I would expect to see more similarities between Tabram and Nichols if it was the same killer. Apart from the victim profile and location, there aren't many. Even the murder weapon was not the same.

As for what happened to Tabram's killer. Who knows? Not all murderers are serialists. I speculated before that he might have been a non-local who was visiting for the Bank Holiday. How do we know it wasn't Tabram's murder that inspired JTR? And I know I've said it before, the fact the Thames Torso victims didn't have any frenzied stab wounds is problematic for that particular theory.

[Abby Normal]

Yeah, I also entertained the possibility that he was psyching himself up to it before he got interrupted.



I'm not convinced, Abby. It is probable that the same man who attacked Millwood also killed Tabram, but I see two different creatures behind this and the canonical murders.



Whomever killed Tabram was likely a piquerist who achieved sexual satisfaction through the infliction of stabbing wounds. Nowhere is this evident in any of the canonicals. There's the odd stab wound here and there, which you would expect when a killer is rifling around victims with a knife, but that's still a ways from the 39 stab wounds inflicted on Martha. This isn't the kind of paraphilia that would disappear at the drop of a hat. In the other thread, it was pointed out that Robert Napper stabbed one victim to death Tabram-esque, before mutilating his next one and removing her organs, but the important detail is that Napper still stabbed at the internal organs of the second victim.

Hi Harry
Fair enough but I disagree. The similarities between Tabram and the others far out weigh the differences for me. And like I said it seems like a natural escalation/progression from stabbing to ripping as the ripper learned how to perfect his technique and what and how he wanted to achieve with his sick fantasy.
and if they were two different creatures, where did this piquerist go? he just happened to disappear right before the ripper just happened to show up on the scene, MO fully formed? highly unlikely IMHO.

[sidbolt123]

Hi, in short, the wounds would take at most 2-3 minutes to inflict, possibly less. The mutilations were missed because they were incomplete and covered by the clothing, hence why Llewellyn missed them. The blood was not seen probabaly because it was dark, Neil only seeing it with his lamp.
we also have issues over the bleeding.

Could I perhaps point you in the direction of my work on The Nichols Murder, "Inside Bucks Row", i think this will provide some answers to your questions.

you will find a link to it on the non fiction section.

steve

Yes please id love to take a read.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
perhaps. He may have been scared off before as me and EL just discussed, or perhaps he was working himself up to organ removal.

Yeah, I also entertained the possibility that he was psyching himself up to it before he got interrupted.

Do you not see reasonable explanation of escalation from millwood to Tabram to Nichols to chapman etc? I do.

I'm not convinced, Abby. It is probable that the same man who attacked Millwood also killed Tabram, but I see two different creatures behind this and the canonical murders.

And is there really that much of a difference between stabbing and ripping? IMHO no there is not.

Whomever killed Tabram was likely a piquerist who achieved sexual satisfaction through the infliction of stabbing wounds. Nowhere is this evident in any of the canonicals. There's the odd stab wound here and there, which you would expect when a killer is rifling around victims with a knife, but that's still a ways from the 39 stab wounds inflicted on Martha. This isn't the kind of paraphilia that would disappear at the drop of a hat. In the other thread, it was pointed out that Robert Napper stabbed one victim to death Tabram-esque, before mutilating his next one and removing her organs, but the important detail is that Napper still stabbed at the internal organs of the second victim.