Time of death/mutilations

[sidbolt123]

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to posting to the message boards so forgive me for any mistakes I make.

I've been reading a bit about the theories against Charles Cross/Lechmere for being JTR and was wondering, could Mary Ann Nichols have been murdered/mutilated in the time it took Cross and Paul to go get a police officer? This could explain the lack of needing to expect her further when they found her lying on the street as there were no visible mutilations as well as no blood present.

What do you guys think? Am I crazy for considering this?

[DJA]

Prolly

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Sid, welcome.

Yeah, this has been mentioned throughout the Lechmere threads at various times. It basically results in PC Neill being your ripper, if your into that sort of left field theory.

Or, if you like, start debating if a non Lechmere killer could hear Lechmere approaching, hide, and reappear in the gap before PC Neill arrives to finish off and mutilate Polly.

[Damaso Marte]

I suppose we can't disprove it because nobody was monitoring the body while Paul and Crossmere were looking for a police officer, but the more parsimonious explanation IMO is that they simply didn't see the (relatively minor) mutilations in the dark.

Were would the killer hide, for one?

[Abby Normal]

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to posting to the message boards so forgive me for any mistakes I make.

I've been reading a bit about the theories against Charles Cross/Lechmere for being JTR and was wondering, could Mary Ann Nichols have been murdered/mutilated in the time it took Cross and Paul to go get a police officer? This could explain the lack of needing to expect her further when they found her lying on the street as there were no visible mutilations as well as no blood present.

What do you guys think? Am I crazy for considering this?

well its possible I guess but highly unlikely IMHO. Lech probably scared off the killer or possibly was her killer.

[milchmanuk]

if Lechmere was not the killer he would of disturbed our Jack, meaning he heard Lechmere.
he either went into the two yard gates and closed them from insede . (locked in some way) or went ( stepped into some one,s house ) most were probally unlocked. not all.
or our Jack left the scene and could crossed over Whitechapel street. or is it road in front of the London Hospital.

[sidbolt123]

if Lechmere was not the killer he would of disturbed our Jack, meaning he heard Lechmere.
he either went into the two yard gates and closed them from insede . (locked in some way) or went ( stepped into some one,s house ) most were probally unlocked. not all.
or our Jack left the scene and could crossed over Whitechapel street. or is it road in front of the London Hospital.

Makes sense, thanks.

[milchmanuk]

some one did start a thread about Lechmere & Paul bein the culprits together.
just as at the murder of stride at the "international workingmen Educational society "
were pipe smoker was and a chap shouting across the street " OI Lipski " at witness.
etc etc etc.
this then leads back to the writing on the wall
" IWES " as above clue.
bein the word to replace " juwes "
on the graffiti in Goulston street.
etc etc etc.

[milchmanuk]

the number 2 & twice could be repeat crime.

[Elamarna]

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to posting to the message boards so forgive me for any mistakes I make.

I've been reading a bit about the theories against Charles Cross/Lechmere for being JTR and was wondering, could Mary Ann Nichols have been murdered/mutilated in the time it took Cross and Paul to go get a police officer? This could explain the lack of needing to expect her further when they found her lying on the street as there were no visible mutilations as well as no blood present.

What do you guys think? Am I crazy for considering this?

Hi, in short, the wounds would take at most 2-3 minutes to inflict, possibly less. The mutilations were missed because they were incomplete and covered by the clothing, hence why Llewellyn missed them. The blood was not seen probabaly because it was dark, Neil only seeing it with his lamp.
we also have issues over the bleeding.

Could I perhaps point you in the direction of my work on The Nichols Murder, "Inside Bucks Row", i think this will provide some answers to your questions.

you will find a link to it on the non fiction section.

steve

[Elamarna]

well its possible I guess but highly unlikely IMHO. Lech probably scared off the killer or possibly was her killer.

Indeed, either are possible.
There is another, maybe less likely , alternative Abby. That one of the residents scared off the killer, by accident of course, by either moving a curtain and allowing a light to show, or opening a window.
We are told that Harriet Lilley , believed she heard something, maybe she looked out, saw nothing, but the killer noticed.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

Indeed, either are possible.
There is another, maybe less likely , alternative Abby. That one of the residents scared off the killer, by accident of course, by either moving a curtain and allowing a light to show, or opening a window.
We are told that Harriet Lilley , believed she heard something, maybe she looked out, saw nothing, but the killer noticed.

Steve

hi El
yes this is a possibility of course. and actually backed up by lech himself, who said he saw or heard no one in or leaving bucks row. so maybe the ripper was scared off before lech got there.

[Harry D]

As I said in the Tabram thread, I'm not sure organ removal was the focus of Nichols' murder. The killer might have left of his own accord.

[Abby Normal]

As I said in the Tabram thread, I'm not sure organ removal was the focus of Nichols' murder. The killer might have left of his own accord.

Hi Harry
perhaps. He may have been scared off before as me and EL just discussed, or perhaps he was working himself up to organ removal. Do you not see reasonable explanation of escalation from millwood to Tabram to Nichols to chapman etc? I do.

And is there really that much of a difference between stabbing and ripping? IMHO no there is not. Especially considering that the first ripping he did was a throat cut with Nichols, suggesting that after the clumsy (but fatal) attack on martha, he improved upon his MO of dispatching/incapacitating his victim and then continued with the escalation with the ripping that would later involve organ removal. its a reasonable narrative to me anyway.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
perhaps. He may have been scared off before as me and EL just discussed, or perhaps he was working himself up to organ removal.

Yeah, I also entertained the possibility that he was psyching himself up to it before he got interrupted.

Do you not see reasonable explanation of escalation from millwood to Tabram to Nichols to chapman etc? I do.

I'm not convinced, Abby. It is probable that the same man who attacked Millwood also killed Tabram, but I see two different creatures behind this and the canonical murders.

And is there really that much of a difference between stabbing and ripping? IMHO no there is not.

Whomever killed Tabram was likely a piquerist who achieved sexual satisfaction through the infliction of stabbing wounds. Nowhere is this evident in any of the canonicals. There's the odd stab wound here and there, which you would expect when a killer is rifling around victims with a knife, but that's still a ways from the 39 stab wounds inflicted on Martha. This isn't the kind of paraphilia that would disappear at the drop of a hat. In the other thread, it was pointed out that Robert Napper stabbed one victim to death Tabram-esque, before mutilating his next one and removing her organs, but the important detail is that Napper still stabbed at the internal organs of the second victim.