was Nichols murdered where found?

[Monty]

He actually said that:

"It was dark at the time although a street lamp was shining at the end of the row".

There are two ends to the row. Neil doesn't specify which end he's talking about.

Regards, Bridewell.

Ker-ching

Monty

[Lechmere]

“Yesterday morning I was proceeding down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, going towards Brady-street. There was not a soul about. I had been round there half an hour previous, and I saw no one then. I was on the left hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street. It was dark at the time, though there was a street lamp shining at the end of the row. I went across and found the deceased lying outside a gateway, her head towards the east.”
There was a gas light at the end of Bucks Row on Brady Street and one behind Neil. The one behind him was not at the end of the row, but actually somewhat in the middle of Bucks Row.
In the context of Neil walking from west to east it is fairly obvious which light Neil was talking about and that the light to the west, which he would have passed just before he saw the body, was not working. As Neil approached the body he would have been aware of a light ahead of him at the end of the Row.
I suspect that the gas pipe to the wetserly light may have been cut when the railway line was put in.
But if there is a need to insist that the light behind him was working, then hey, let there be light.

[Rob Clack]

Bucks Row 1873

I have marked the only street lamp which is on Brady Street. Note no street lamps in Bucks Row.



The light I have marked was at the end of Bucks Row as Bucks Row didn't extend to Bakers Row in 1888 but only to the board school. The area in front of the board school was known as Great Eastern Square.
Rob

[Monty]

Like I said, your interpretation.

Neil doesn't state that the lamp he had just passed was out. If it were then that would have been an important piece of information to note, he doesn't.

He states the lamp was at the end of THE Row, indicating houses and not the street, which he does mention. Thereby Neil has noted a difference between the two. The Row is in reference to the houses. The lamp was not at the end of this Row of houses however neither was the most easterly lamp.

Additionally, Neil states "It was dark at the time, though there was a street lamp shining at the end of the row". Its logical to assume Neil is referring to the location of the crime scene and his comment that "it was dark at the time , though there was a street lamp at the end of the row" is describing that scene. So why refer to a lamp near Brady st?

That's MY interpretation. Up to the reader to make their own mind up.

Monty

[Monty]

Bucks Row 1873

I have marked the only street lamp which is on Brady Street. Note no street lamps in Bucks Row.

[ATTACH]14959[/ATTACH]

The light I have marked was at the end of Bucks Row as Bucks Row didn't extend to Bakers Row in 1888 but only to the board school. The area in front of the board school was known as Great Eastern Square.
Rob

And from there to Bakers Row it was Whites Row wasn't it Rob?

Monty

[Rob Clack]

And from there to Bakers Row it was Whites Row wasn't it Rob?

Monty

Indeed it was.

Rob

[Lechmere]

But in the 1881 census 1-5 Bucks Row were found on the northern side of the road and immediately east of Thomas Street (and west of the 'westerly' lamp).

I would suggest the lamp marked on Brady Street is the one Neil referred to. It fits his testimony.

There was no row of houses on the northern side around where the westerly lamp was located. And why would Neil list every unlit gas light? The 1873 (?) map shows several lamps down Bucks Row that must have been out.

But in any case the westerly lamp was of sufficent distance back from Brown's Stable Yard so as to scarcely provided any illumination of the murder scene - had it been lit.

Can any instance of the area from the School to Thomas Street being referred to as 'Great Eastern Square' be located in any report relating to this murder?

[Bridewell]

And why would Neil list every unlit gas light?

Because he was giving evidence at an inquest where the lighting conditions would have been highly relevant - which is probably why he was asked about them.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

It is a Constables duty to record every malfunctioning lamp on his beat and report it at the earliest opportunity.

If it was unlit, it would have been noted.

Why describe a lamp in Brady St, which cannot be seen from the murder scene.

No, that suggestion does not work at all.


Monty

[waterloo]

I think we should all return to the original suggestion that Nichols could have been killed elsewhere than Bucks Row. Why do we keep ignoring evidence collected at the time. There was apparently a letter sent to Mrs Hardiman of Hanbury Street suggesting that the earlier murder of Nichols was acrried out b several persons and the body place in Bucks Row. Why on earth would anybody take the time and effort to suggest this happened. There is no smoke without fire.....

Thank you all

I am still trying....

[Rob Clack]

Can any instance of the area from the School to Thomas Street being referred to as 'Great Eastern Square' be located in any report relating to this murder?

There's no reason why it should be?
Anyway can't find my source for the area in front of the board school being refered to as Great Eastern Square it was a few years back. It was something to do with the Coal Depot.

These should do. The first is from 1886 and the Goad 1890.





Rob

[Edward]

Thoughts on relative lack of blood

Hello All –

Perhaps the relative lack of blood at the murder site was due to the fact that the victim was dead when the butchery commenced. There is medical opinion that her throat was cut while she was on the ground. The medicos were also of the opinion that the abdomen was opened up while she was on the ground.

It is a commonly held belief among many on these boards (myself included) that the killer strangled the victims in order to get them on the ground before starting the butchery. This is a murder that occurred early in the series. Perhaps the strangulation was more complete (and effective) in this case than it was in later events. If the heart had stopped beating due to the lack of oxygen, there would be no spurt of blood when the throat was cut, only some drainage from the severed vessels.

Even if the victim is not quite dead after the strangulation, bradycardia induced by lack of oxygen may not produce as much blood as would normally be expected. Just some thoughts.

Edward

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Just to further complicate matters, in the 1888 Post Office Street Directory the north side of Bucks Row commenced at the corner of Thomas Street.

Regards,

Simon

[Bridewell]

There was apparently a letter sent to Mrs Hardiman of Hanbury Street suggesting that the earlier murder of Nichols was carried out by several persons and the body place in Bucks Row. Why on earth would anybody take the time and effort to suggest this happened. There is no smoke without fire.....

I'm not sure the letter is of much value as evidence. It could have a basis in fact, but it could equally well have been mischief-making. What I would like to know is why such a letter was sent to Mrs Hardiman. Distraction technique? If so, from what? Bucks Row presumably - a bit too close for comfort perhaps?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Phil H]

Why should we even think that the body might have been killed elsewhere?

As I have said earlier, the location, the recessed doors, the relative darkness were all consistent with a place an unfortunate might go to conduct her business.

There is no suggestion that Annie, Liz, Kate, mary or any other potential victim was murdered other than where they were discovered. So my hypothcate such an idea for Polly?

It was discussed in the past as part of a notion (now discredited) that they were killed in carriage and dumped.

I see no logic to any discussion of a potential different MO in this case.

Phil H