was Nichols murdered where found?

[Monty]

I am disputing your interpretation of Neils testimony.

Monty

See above.

Monty

[Rob Clack]

I did a bit of work a few years back trying to determine where the lamp in Bucks Row was. And it was here:



Rob

[lynn cates]

distance

Hello Rob. Looks to be only a few yards west of the murder site?

Cheers.
LC

[Rob Clack]

Hi Lynn,

Just under 30 yards, so not to far away.

Regards

Rob

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Rob. Thanks. Very helpful.

Cheers.
LC

[spyglass]

Hi all,
so it would seem then that most people agree that the lamp shown as being oppersite the gates in the book CSI Whitechapel is wrong. It didnt look right to me when I first viewed it, but assumed it to be correct.
So I just wonder why the two authors let this slip through...they must have spotted it.

Many thanks.

[Monty]

To be fair to Jake this is something that has been debated some time and more deeply after the documentary from which, I assume, these images have been taken.

I dimly recall a conversation (with whom I can't recall sadly) where it was mentioned that Jake is aware of the uncertainty of the lamps location.

I know Jake, and how thorough he is in his work. However it must be beared in mind that errors are made and are genuine and honest. I think its unfair to suggest that 'suspect bias' is the reason for this mistake.

The book is excellent, as acknowledged, and its benefits far outweigh the errors...of which are minimal as far as I can see.

Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

As Stan mentioned earlier there was some contemporary discussion regarding the quantity of blood found at the murder scene and on Polly, leading of course to the possibility that she was killed at another location. The same thing was suggested for Kate Eddowes as I recall. From Bucks Row Constable 97J John Neil stated that he saw a "There was a pool of blood just where her neck was lying. It was running from the wound in her neck." He said he checked the street for "the mark of wheels" in consideration of the possibility that she was dropped at that spot.

Dr Llewellyn stated that "There was very little blood round the neck", when he arrived on the scene.

Interestingly, in his summation Baxter said this..."There was not a trace of blood anywhere, except at the spot where her neck was lying, this circumstance being sufficient to justify the assumption that the injuries to the throat were committed when the woman was on the ground, whilst the state of her clothing and the absence of any blood about her legs suggested that the abdominal injuries were inflicted whilst she was still in the same position".........and...."Dr. Llewellyn seems to incline to the opinion that the abdominal injuries were first, and caused instantaneous death; but, if so, it seems difficult to understand the object of such desperate injuries to the throat, or how it comes about that there was so little bleeding from the several arteries, that the clothing on the upper surface was not stained, and, indeed, very much less bleeding from the abdomen than from the neck."

I am often surprised how things that should have been recorded definitively, like the Grafitto, were apparently not. Like the amount of blood at Pollys murder scene.

We have a "pool", "very little", and "not a trace", all from officials related to the case.

So, which was it? And why would an obviously qualified man like Llewellyn suggest that Pollys abdomen was cut before her throat? Seems quite improbable even to a mere layman like myself.

I believe available light is a non starter when looking for the killer, there are kills within the Canonical Group that were done in near darkness.

Cheers

[Lechmere]

The problem with the map that locates the gas lamps down Bucks Row is that it predates the construction in 1876 of Whitechapel Underground Station and the East London Railway cutting to Liverpool Street. This cutting led to the construction of the brick walls on either side of Bucks Row, which is effectively a bridge. These walls of course are still there.
The gas lamp was west of the cutting. Whether it still functioned after the cutting was made is unclear. However it clearly wasn’t functioning on the night Polly Nichols was slain.
I have checked and in the illustrations in Jack the Ripper CSI: Whitechapel, the lamp is incorrectly placed east of the cutting, outside Essex Wharf and more or less directly opposite Brown’s Stable Yard.

[Monty]

Clearly

Monty

[Wickerman]

A part of a Police Constables duty is to report disfunctional lighting on his beat. We have no report of this either from Neil nor in any news account. Of course this does not mean that the lights in Bucks Row were all working, nor does it mean they were not.

This Map (one I believe Jakey worked from) shows the lamps in Pink, the Green circle is the closest to the scene.

Photo shows that lamp in a red circle.

Monty

Neil.
The upper pic. of the two, the map, I can tell it dates between 1873-83, but do you have the actual date?

Thanks.
Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Cadosch

The voices heard by Cadosche? Possibly someone who found the body earlier than John Davis. (A startled "No!" and a thump as they supported themselves against the fence would not be impossible as an explanation.)

Not an impossible explanation but, as the cry of "No" and the fall against the fence were separated by as long as "three or four minutes" a pretty unlikely one, I would have thought.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

Neil.
The upper pic. of the two, the map, I can tell it dates between 1873-83, but do you have the actual date?

Thanks.
Jon S.

I'm not at home just at the moment Jon so cannot confirm however it must have been sometime between 1873 (when it was named Little North st) and 1876 (when the new Board School and Underground station was built).

I'll try to confirm later unless someone like Rob can help.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Brady Street

The simple and unalterable fact is that Neil said there was no light nearer than Brady street.

He actually said that:

"It was dark at the time although a street lamp was shining at the end of the row".

There are two ends to the row. Neil doesn't specify which end he's talking about.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Rob Clack]

Neil.
The upper pic. of the two, the map, I can tell it dates between 1873-83, but do you have the actual date?

Thanks.
Jon S.

The date is 1873 I believe.

The lamp to the west of the murder spot was working that night. There never was a street lamp at the Brady Street end of Bucks Row.

Rob