was Nichols murdered where found?

[Monty]

Yes but we were discussing the discrepancies and inconsistencies - which are the catalyst in part for the supposition that nichols was killed elsewhere or there was some sort of conspiracy involved. Hence Monty leaping to the defence of Thain and mizen misses the point.
I said Mizen's knocking up was legitimate but he pointedly denied continuing whereas Paul and Charles lechmere said he did. Discrepancy. Why did mizen lie? He knew he would be criticised for not going immediately.
Why did thain deny gossiping with the slaughtermen? this created another discrepancy. Thain was worried he would be criticised for stopping for a chat.

None of the lights down bucks row seem to have been working except - arguably but unlikely - the one opposite the school on the other side of the bridge and cutting. The digging of the cutting is a good explanation for this but I would like to hear mr lucky's views.
Incidentally the bridge fixes the width of bucks row as of 1888 sand from it we can determine lined of sight very well.

Theres a difference between stopping for a chat and the accusation of dereliction of duty. I am merely pointing out that it isnt as clear cut as you state.

We have no reports of lamps not working in Bucks Row during the night of the murder. Neil does not state that any lamps were faulty and it was his duty to record such matters.

As stated, Mr Luckys cuttings range from between 10 and 5 years prior to the murder, and the most recent nowhere near Bucks Row, I fail to see how this can be counted as evidence that the lamps were out. Again, when he comes up with reports concerning Bucks Row and 1888 then its to be noted. The bottom line is that Whitechapel Station was completed by 1876.

The carriageway remains the same. However the wall/building on the northside of Durward Street sit slightly back (Northwards) today than in 1888, this was made clear in a previous post of mine. Therefore any comparison is not exact.

However if you wish to take a stroll via Google along the street, you will see what you are stating is an impossibility.

Monty


PS Attached is a shot of the row C1965 - Courtesy of Andrew Firth. Nice shot which Ive not seen before. Also show how difficult it would have been to have viewed a lamp in Brady street from the scene.

[Lechmere]

We haven't got neil's report as ti whether there were lamps not working or indeed whether he knew from long experience that bucks row was in darkness - but I prefer to wait for mr lucky's view.
We do know that Neil said the nearest light was at the end if the row on the opposite side to him which certainly implies very strongly that he meant to one at the far end of bucks row and on the opposite side of the road to him - namely the one in Brady street - which that interesting photo demonstrates would have been in his line of sight if he was on the northern pavement and his statement makes it clear that is where he was.
I don't need to rely on google maps - no 1 eyeball us much more efficient

[Lechmere]

A double event - nearly

[Monty]

I suggest you invest in some glasses.....or ask Mr Lucky.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Incidentally the map you rely on for your placing of the light predates the cutting and the information mr lucky unearthed. Hence it is not of massive utility in determining where lights were in 1888. For example we know there was a non working light almost opposite the murder scene - that Neil didn't feel the need to mention - and it isn't on your map. Unless of course my eyesight is too poor to notice it.
Has anyone got a better resolution version of the bucks row 'gas light map' without those obscuring blobs?

Unfotunately tower hamlets local history library is closed (yet again) this time for roof repairs and they have an excellent large scale map collection.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Great photograph.

. . . and even more difficult for PC Neil to have seen PC Mizen in Bakers Row.

Regards,

Simon

[Mr Lucky]

Mr Lucky
Are you hinting that the Gas company may have withdrawn the gas supply to some of the lamps down Bucks Row as a result of the railway cutting?

Hi Lechmere,

No not the gas company, the various Great Eastern Railway acts are passed due to the scale of the finances needed to be raised for the work to be done, this is due to the regulations laid down in the 1720 Bubble act. But additionally the act gives the railway company the ability through statute to do the following -

‘stop up remove alter or divert temporarily or permanently all Turnpike and other roads and Highways Railways Tramways Bridges Rivers Streams Canals and other Watercourses, Telegraphic wire tubes and apparatus tunnels subways Sewer Pipes Buildings and Works of any description which it may be necessary or convenient to stop up remove alter or divert for any of the purposes of the intended Railways or works’

Basically the railway has the backing of parliament when it come to disrupting gas supplies, (or any thing else as listed above), the gas companies involved, the Gas Light and Coke Company and the Imperial Gas Company and the Amalgamated Company can not do anything about it.

My conclusion are that a Map showing gas being supplied to Bucks Row pre-railway cutting construction tells us nothing about whether gas was being supplied after the construction of the railway cutting.

Btw, It should be pointed out that I too have a ‘sinister agenda’ which I keep behind the clock on my mantelpiece, along with my gas bill.

[Monty]

Thanks Simon, however I got it from Andrew Firth.

Gives a good view of the scene, especially the road layout.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Thank you for that mr lucky - I agree with your conclusion.
If your mantle piece is safeguarding your much heralded discourse on the Nichols murder, then I hope the contents are disgorged expeditiously.

[Mr Lucky]

If thats the case then is quoting reports 5-10 years prior to the murders and not in the correct location. When Mr Lucky comes up with something relevant to the scene then I think you should take note Edward.

The locations referred to in the 10 November 1875 bill I have quoted are in section 4 of the Great Eastern Railway Act 1874.

The reason I'm 'quoting reports 5- 10 years' earlier is due to your reference to a map of 1873

[Monty]

Then you're sinister agenda may be best served by viewing Mulshaw Mr Lucky.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Pc neil's sinister agenda was to walk on the left hand pavement so he Could see the Brady street lamp. If he has been more dexterous then I think he'd have walked on the right side of the road, in which case he would not have walked across to get to nichols's body.

[Monty]

Pc neil's sinister agenda was to walk on the left hand pavement so he Could see the Brady street lamp. If he has been more dexterous then I think he'd have walked on the right side of the road, in which case he would not have walked across to get to nichols's body.

Neil would have been predominantly concerned with the Wharfs and Warehouses on the north side, as was his remit layed out in his Book of Regulations.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Thank you for agreeing with me, as per regulations.

[Mr Lucky]

Mulshaw, from the Nichols inquest -

‘<Mulshaw> - you don’t see a policeman often in that quarter. I think I saw two that night.
Police-constable Niel(sic) stood up, and witness identified him as one of the constables who was patrolling his beat that night.
A juror - How often do the constables pass round ?
Witness - about once in two hours, I should think. ’ - The Morning Post 18th Sept. 1888