The Grisly

[lynn cates]

jibbing

Hello Lechmere. That is correct. And the police noted that all their stories jibbed.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

What we don't know, of course, is whether there was a way from Winthrop Street to Bucks Row/Durward Street via Mr. Brown's Yard.

If so, surely this would have been the answer to a murderer's prayer.

In that case, Simon, the song would go something like this -

In the front door
Out the back door
With a body
Oozin' life

'Satchmo' II

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

"Who's that creepin' round the corner?

"Could that someone be . . . . [insert unlikely suspect's name here]?"

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Brownes Stable yard door was found to be locked by Neil.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

From the inside.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

If, Simon, Jack the Ripper was a triumvirate of three horse-butchers - would they drop the dead body of Nichols directly outside a gate leading to their working place? Just asking.

And just like Lechmere asked before - how did they manage to carry her, neck severed to the bone and the gut cut open - to Buck´s Row, without spilling a drop of blood?

It does not work for me, I must say.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

It might be worth noting that while Britten, Tomkins and Mumford were entertaining and murdering prostitutes, Mr Barber, their boss, lived on the premises, Mumford`s wife lived opposite the entrance to the slaughteryard, and Britten`s wife lived a few doors up.

[Fisherman]

...so it was Tomkins whodun it?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

From the inside.

Regards,
Simon

Didn`t Mrs Green`s lad next door work for Mr Brown. There must have been access at the back. I`m sure young Green opened up the stables to fetch the bucket of water and brush to clean away the blood stains.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

Firstly, the gate did not lead to their workplace.

Secondly, most of Nichols' blood would have been spilled in the slaughterhouse. Hence none in the street and little on her clothing.

It's a workable scenario which sure beats the idea of the swift, silent phantom menace.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Simon:

"Firstly, the gate did not lead to their workplace."

Point taken. 19-23 Winthrop Street, 150 yards from Brown´s it was. Meaning that we would have the butcher´s peering out onto Winthrop Street to see if the coast was clear, then silently carrying Nichols out onto the street, walking westwards with her for a hundred yards or thereabouts, passing Patrick Mulshaw who was guarding them sewer works, then making a sharp right, walking into an unlocked store (judging by the Goad´s), passing through that store, opening it´s unlocked back door, carrying Nichols through Brown´s Yard, silently opening the gates onto Buck´s Row, dropping Nichols on the ground, and then closing the gates behind her, locking them in the process. And no blood dripped from her still warm body onto the street, with a cut neck that produced oozing blood as Neil discovered her later? It was all spilled in the slaughterhouse AND on Buck´s Row, but nowhere inbetween?

Is that about correct?

"It's a workable scenario which sure beats the idea of the swift, silent phantom menace."

I´m all for workable, practical scenarios instead of the phantom suggestion. As far as that goes, we´re on level with each other.

But is this really a workable scenario?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

Daily News, 1st September 1888—

Dr. Llewellyn: "There was a very small pool of blood in the pathway which had trickled from the wound in the throat, not more than would fill two wine glasses, or half a pint at the outside. This fact, and the way which the deceased was lying, made me think at the time that it was probable that the murder was committed elsewhere, and the body conveyed to Buck's row."

Her carotid artery had been severed. Where was all the blood?

Echo, 1st September 1888—

"It is his [Dr Llewellyn’s] impression that she was not murdered at the spot where her body was found, but that her throat was cut, the dreadful abdominal injuries then inflicted, and that the body was then carried, enveloped in her large, heavy cloak, and thrown outside the gateway at Essex Wharf. Mr. Seccombe, Dr. Llewellyn's assistant, is of the same opinions, especially, he says, as there was comparatively little blood where the deceased lay."

Did anyone look for bloodstains in Winthrop Street?

Evening News, 7th September 1888—

"[Winthrop Street] is very narrow and very dark, and tenanted by many of the worst characters in London, and there seems to be no doubt whatever that the murder was committed there, and the body brought round the corner and left a few yards up Buck’s-row . . . a thorough search of the houses in Winthrop-street has not been made by the police yet, and there is good reason to believe that had this been done at the outset a clue to the murder and the actual spot where it took place would have been discovered."

The Horse World of London, William John Gordon, 1893—

"Harrison Barber, Limited . . . kill 26,000 London horses a year. All night and all day the work goes on, this slaying and flaying, and boning and boiling down, and this cooking for feline food. Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

Perhaps Mrs Hardiman from 29 Hanbury Street would be in that line.

Time was short. Perhaps somebody had to think quickly.

I see nothing wrong with any of this as a working hypothesis/scenario.

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

From the inside.

Regards,

Simon

Yet locked they were Simon.

Begs the questions who had access to the yard, who had access to the keys? (If there were any? And which way did the yard gets swing?

Also begs one quite important question, why?

Why go to all that trouble just to dump a body yards away?

Also, why did they not dismember her? They had the equipment.

Also.....

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

The answer to your Q1, pt. 3 is "Inwards".

House of Commons Papers [Urban Authority], 1875—



Your Q2, 3 and 4 are merely rhetorical.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Hi Simon!

" "There was a very small pool of blood in the pathway which had trickled from the wound in the throat, not more than would fill two wine glasses, or half a pint at the outside. This fact, and the way which the deceased was lying, made me think at the time that it was probable that the murder was committed elsewhere, and the body conveyed to Buck's row."
Her carotid artery had been severed. Where was all the blood?"

In different places, Simon. Some of it was still inside her, some had been soaked up by her clothing (Thain got extensively bloodied when lifting her onto the ambulance), and some - two glasses of it, was flowing over the pavement. No jet of blood was about, indicating that she may well have been throttled to death before she had her throat cut - or that the abdominal incisions came first.
At any rate, the blood in her was still warm and flowing as Neil shone his light on her, and that means that it would have been a very hard thing to do, to carry her a hundred yards or so, without spilling one single drop of blood on the way.

"Did anyone look for bloodstains in Winthrop Street?"

Let me put in this way - did anybody look for bloodstains in Thomas Street? Not very likelty. And why? Because it would be silly to look for blood there if there was no blood-trail leading in that direction.
Anyways, blood was looked for in for example Brady Street, and reasonably, the same went for Winthrop Street. Since you ask, though, it is probably not on record...


"Harrison Barber, Limited . . . kill 26,000 London horses a year. All night and all day the work goes on, this slaying and flaying, and boning and boiling down, and this cooking for feline food. Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

Ah! You are suggesting she was wheeled to Buck´s Row. That´s a useful addition to your suggestion, of course. But what about Patrick Mulshaw? He was awake between three and four in the morning. How could he have missed a merry bunch of horse-knackers wheeling a barrow over the Winthrop Street cobble-stones?

"Time was short. Perhaps somebody had to think quickly."

Somebody DID think quickly - but that somebody was not in the horse-knacking business ...

"I see nothing wrong with any of this as a working hypothesis/scenario."

Mulshaw. He is the main objection, together with the corroboration inbetween the horseslaughterers. I would also have expected the odd drop of blood beside Nichols, even if she had been wheeled there.

But I like that you think outside the box, Simon!

The best,
Fisherman