Why is There Little Interest in the Nichols Murder?

[Versa]

Hi,

I have a couple of points/questions regarding Cross as a suspect (and IMO it doesn't hurt to consider him)

1. If part of the Cross theory is that he killed on his way to work doesn't the fact that most of the victims were killed at the weekends make that less likely?

2. Dismissing Cross because he acted calmly and gave his real address, place of work etc is folly as the police actually returned one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims into his 'care' and a naked teenage victim that was badly wounded at that.... Which proves that at least some killers are capable of acting calmly and pulling the wool over the eyes of the police.

[Phil H]

If part of the Cross theory is that he killed on his way to work doesn't the fact that most of the victims were killed at the weekends make that less likely?

Were Saturday's day's off in 1888? I thought "the weekend" was a later invention, and then for country house parties and so on.

Up to the late 60s or early 1970s, in the UK, people worked on Saturday mornings - the Civil Service had just stopped a year or to before I joined in late 1974 - but older colleagues still remembered those days. Through my childhood my father - in local Government, went to the office on Saturday mornings.

Phil

[Lechmere]

Martha Tabram was killed in the early hours of Tuesday morning. The Monday had been a Bank Holiday. So Cross could have been on his way to work.
Polly Nichols was killed in the early hours of Friday morning – Cross was definitely on his way to work.
Annie Chapman was killed in the early hours of Saturday morning – a normal work day in 1888.
The ‘double event’ was in the very early hours of Sunday morning. This is the anomaly, so far as being committed on the way to work is concerned - if he did it of course.
Mary Kelly was killed in the early hours of Friday morning.
Alice McKenzie was killed in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

On the subject of what address to give, what option did he have? If he had given totally false details and didn’t present himself so he could appear at the Inquest, he risked a major search being undertaken to find him. He wasn’t an itinerant who could just move to the other side of London and take rooms in a doss house. He had a regular job and family. He walked those streets back and forth every day. If he was the culprit the safest and most sensible thing would have been to play along as just as much as necessary.

[Monty]

Hi,

I have a couple of points/questions regarding Cross as a suspect (and IMO it doesn't hurt to consider him)

1. If part of the Cross theory is that he killed on his way to work doesn't the fact that most of the victims were killed at the weekends make that less likely?

2. Dismissing Cross because he acted calmly and gave his real address, place of work etc is folly as the police actually returned one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims into his 'care' and a naked teenage victim that was badly wounded at that.... Which proves that at least some killers are capable of acting calmly and pulling the wool over the eyes of the police.

I'm trying to think of a killer who drew a Policemans attention to a recently despatched body.

If Jack was Jewish, Saturday was the Sabbath.

Monty

[Versa]

Were Saturday's day's off in 1888? I thought "the weekend" was a later invention, and then for country house parties and so on.

Yes good point, I wasn't 100% sure what could be considered a work day and its often banded about that the murders took place at weekends (hence some people's claims of a working man killing weekends )

[Versa]

Martha Tabram was killed in the early hours of Tuesday morning. The Monday had been a Bank Holiday. So Cross could have been on his way to work.
Polly Nichols was killed in the early hours of Friday morning – Cross was definitely on his way to work.
Annie Chapman was killed in the early hours of Saturday morning – a normal work day in 1888.
The ‘double event’ was in the very early hours of Sunday morning. This is the anomaly, so far as being committed on the way to work is concerned - if he did it of course.
Mary Kelly was killed in the early hours of Friday morning.
Alice McKenzie was killed in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

Very thorough answer thank you

[Lechmere]

Monty
“If Jack was Jewish, Saturday was the Sabbath.”
Does this imply – to you – that he couldn’t have been Jewish?
If he was Christian then Sunday was his Sabbath.
Murders took place on Sunday morning and Saturday morning so it doesn’t get us very far – unless he was an atheist! Or unless his religion didn’t affect his murderous intent, or when he worked.

Did Cross have much choice about telling Mizen about Nichols’s body when he bumped into him while having Paul in tow? I would suggest not. And remember he didn’t make it clear to Mizen that she was dead.

[Monty]

Monty
“If Jack was Jewish, Saturday was the Sabbath.”
Does this imply – to you – that he couldn’t have been Jewish?
If he was Christian then Sunday was his Sabbath.
Murders took place on Sunday morning and Saturday morning so it doesn’t get us very far – unless he was an atheist! Or unless his religion didn’t affect his murderous intent, or when he worked.

Did Cross have much choice about telling Mizen about Nichols’s body when he bumped into him while having Paul in tow? I would suggest not. And remember he didn’t make it clear to Mizen that she was dead.

It implies, to me, that he wasn't a devout Jew. However it was more a reference to work.

Cross hung around for Paul, and presented himself to him. He didn't have to linger at the scene.

Cross also stated to Paul that he felt the woman was dead and, at inquest, said he told Mizen she was either dead or drunk, taking on board Pauls belief.

If Cross wanted to bide time, why mention a possibility of death.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Cross approached Paul but, if he did it, it could be argued that he had little option when virtually caught in the act.

They then together hardly lingered at the scene more than a minimal time and didn't immediately raise the alarm, unlike everyone else who found a Whitechapel murder victim.

It is unclear who said what as the press reports are contradictory, but it is clear they didn't categorically tell Mizen that Polly was dead. If Cross did it, then he had to say things that would not arose Paul's suspicions. Being vague as to Polly's status would achieve that end.

[Monty]

Paul approached from Brady Street. This was a fair distance from the scene. As Cross noted Pauls approach he, rather than fleeing, hid in a doorway until Paul approached closer. Ergo he lingered until Paul arrived on the scene, as opposed to fleeing.

I prefer to be led by the inquest reports, which clearly state that Cross had told Mizen the was a woman dead or drunk in Bucks Row.

No, he didn't have to say anything at all. He could have pleaded ignorance. He had nothing to gain, if he was the killer, by pointing out a possible death.

To me the theory is far fetched.

Monty

[Phil H]

But Monty - the rationale is mere speculation, though I think some of us have been trying to argue that it should not be so lightly dismissed.

The fact remains that Lechmere/Cross was the only man discovered (practically) standing over the body of a JtR victim and he DID give a "misleading" name (i.e. not the one he usually used by all accounts). That should at least be "of interest". Neither of those points are true of any other person in the whole case.

Further than that I will not go - we have neither evidence, nor much likelihood of further research.

On one point though (just assuming for argument that Lechmere/Cross was the killer), Lechmere/Cross could not know what Paul had seen, or would see. IF Paul had seen him standing in the road close to where the body lay, and then discovered the body, Paul might have put two and two together. So Paul could either walk away or hasten away (run?) the latter might betray his guilt, the former allow him to be caught. And further, given his familiarity with his route to work, he may have known that a policeman was on his beat just ahead. What if, hastening away, he ran into the copper? What if Paul started to shout "Murder!" and raise a hue and cry? What if the cop heard paul?

Perhaps better to stay still and brazen it out?

Pure speculation, worth nothing, nut not impossible, I would argue - and we have reason to believe that "Jack" was pretty cool and a risk taker.

But no, we have no way of making Lechmere/Cross a suspect - though I repeat my comment from earlier posts - wouldn't it be amusing if the man seen standing by the "first" body ever proved to have been "Jack" all along - having hidden in plain sight because we were all (then and now) too dense to see it!!

Phil

[Monty]

The only man practically? Heh, ok, practically.

I need to apologise for my misleading post. Cross states he was in the middle of the road (not over the body, infact dechipering Cross and Pauls statements it seems they both went to the body, for the first time, together), about 40 yards (120 odd foot I believe) away from Paul when he noted him, and Paul confirms this. Whilst the distance is not canyon sized its sufficient enough for Cross to flee, assuming he was physically able to.

Paul saw Cross first and hadnt noted the body until the Carman had pointed it out to him.

Re Mizen, inquest reports states that Cross said to Mizen "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead."

There is no ambiguity here, Cross clearly states his opinion.

Monty

[Phil H]

The only man practically? Heh, ok, practically.

I inserted the word "practically" because certain posters seemed to quibble about the word "over" in earlier discussions. Given the width of Bucks Row (which I know from standing there) the difference between over and near is a question of feet and inches. I'd say "over" without qualm.

Paul saw Cross first and hadnt noted the body until the Carman had pointed it out to him.

How do you know, Monty?

Oh, we know what was said, but my speculations in my post earlier today were hypothetical and looking at a slightly different scenario. I neither believe Lechmere/Cross was the Ripper, not question the evidence, but the discussion was why he acted/might have acted as he did.

Phil

[curious]

They then together hardly lingered at the scene more than a minimal time and didn't immediately raise the alarm, unlike everyone else who found a Whitechapel murder victim.

I don't think we know for a certainty that everyone who found a WC murder victim raised the alarm . . . I think it is possible Annie Chapman was found, then left for someone else to "discover".

curious

[Phil H]

I don't think we know for a certainty that everyone who found a WC murder victim raised the alarm . . . I think it is possible Annie Chapman was found, then left for someone else to "discover".

I agree, curious. good point.

phil