Brady St bloodstains Aug 31st

[The Rookie Detective]

The timing of the Colwell event was not established. They weren't certain of the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

That's what I thought Tom.

One thing that can be said with some confidence, is that the shop downstairs was closed, as someone (or something) was (allegedly) heard to have hit the shutters downstairs, shortly after a woman was heard in some kind of distress.

The shop was closed, so the incident must have occurred after hours.

Which of course depends on what kind of shop they ran, and also if they had opened during the previous day.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi RD,

Are you referring to "multiple female witnesses" as Mrs Colville and her daughter. At one time I thought that the Colville incident may be related but it turned out that that incident was a little after midnight, so the connection would seem unlikely.

Cheers, George

The timing of the Colwell event was not established. They weren't certain of the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD,

Are you referring to "multiple female witnesses" as Mrs Colville and her daughter. At one time I thought that the Colville incident may be related but it turned out that that incident was a little after midnight, so the connection would seem unlikely.

Cheers, George

But if this assault that was heard did occur before midnight, then that could imply that the Ripper attacked another woman prior to murdering Nichols.

Could the bloodstains have been made by another woman having been attacked before Nichols?

The important thing to remember here is that unless mother and daughter both lied, then a woman was indeed heard being attacked/running from her attacker, and who headed from the northern section of Brady Street, and who then ran south towards the witnesses location, when the woman outside was heard hitting the shutters of their shop.

There is no reason to suggest that the 2 witnesses lied, and on that basis, there was another woman attacked prior to Nichols having been murdered.

What are the chances of 2 women being attacked within such close proximity and within a relatively small time frame, and the assailant being a different man?

Could the Ripper have been stalking the area around Brady Street/Bucks Row and Nichols met her fate by walking towards her killer?

There's no evidence to support the idea that Nichols met her killer and accompanied him to somewhere secluded.

Otherwise, she wouldn't have been found left in the street.

Could this then explain why the Ripper moved to murdering Chapman in a back garden; away from the public street?

It seems to me that Nichols was so intoxicated that she went off wandering and the Ripper spotted her and killed her impulsively after assessing she would be easy prey.

Could there have been a woman who was assaulted in Brady St, who never came forward?

Could Nichols have been a rebound kill after the Ripper made such a mess of the woman he attacked closer to midnight?

Ultimately, the assault on the woman that was heard by mother and daughter, cannot be dismissed as irrelevant to the Ripper case, because even if this wasn't Nichols being initially attacked, it still suggests that the Ripper attacked another would be victim before he even saw Nichols.

Were there any records of any women who went to the hospital, and who were reported as having any stab wounds or cuts to their torso?

The London Hospital would be the obvious first port of call.

Fascinating.

[GBinOz]

Found on Reddit of all places... it states it's from Reynolds 2nd of Sept 1888

Interesting! Some more conjecture that the mutilations preceded the throat cut. Could the sequence have been a strangulation followed by the abdominal mutilations, an interruption, the commencement of an escape delayed by the victim showing signs of life? Then a throat cut before or after the witness(es) depart? Just brainstorming - no need for alarm.

[GBinOz]

The evidence given by multiple female witnesses, suggests that the assault on Nichols may have commenced in Brady Street, before the Ripper finally dispatched Nichols in Bucks Row.

In other words, rather than the killer flee towards Brady St, there's a possibility that it was the other way around, and that the assault commenced in Brady St (near the Jewish cemetery) and then culminated in Bucks Row.


Cue the onslaught...

Hi RD,

Are you referring to "multiple female witnesses" as Mrs Colville and her daughter. At one time I thought that the Colville incident may be related but it turned out that that incident was a little after midnight, so the connection would seem unlikely.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

If only we knew the exact location of these bloodstains.

[Geddy2112]

Found on Reddit of all places... it states it's from Reynolds 2nd of Sept 1888

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Herlock,

If the perpetrator made his escape towards Brady St, wouldn't he have run into Paul and/or Cross?

Might I suggest that perhaps these blood drops may have related to the Colville incident rather than the Nichols murder?

Cheers, George

The evidence given by multiple female witnesses, suggests that the assault on Nichols may have commenced in Brady Street, before the Ripper finally dispatched Nichols in Bucks Row.

In other words, rather than the killer flee towards Brady St, there's a possibility that it was the other way around, and that the assault commenced in Brady St (near the Jewish cemetery) and then culminated in Bucks Row.


Cue the onslaught...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

If the perpetrator made his escape towards Brady St, wouldn't he have run into Paul and/or Cross?

Might I suggest that perhaps these blood drops may have related to the Colville incident rather than the Nichols murder?

Cheers, George

Hello George,

I’m guessing that he could have turned into Brady Street before Cross arrived but you’re right that these spots were likelier from an unconnected incident. Unless he was running with a full cup of blood I wouldn’t have thought it likely that a bloodied knife would have kept dripping for that long or that he would have gone so far without putting the knife away, also it’s unlikely that the killer became so saturated in blood that he kept dripping 170 yards into Brady Street. The blood spots in Buck’s Row are interesting though. I need to have a look at the reports and see what might have been Sid about them.

[GBinOz]

It is an interesting thread Chris. The only point that comes to mind for me is this…


LLOYD'S WEEKLY NEWSPAPER

LONDON: SUNDAY, SEPT. 2, 1888.

"Shortly after noon on Friday some men while searching the pavement in Buck's-row, above the gateway, in a different direction to that from which the woman came, or was brought, found two large spots of blood, and each about the size of a shilling. The first was about 25 feet from the gateway and the second 10 feet beyond. Both were a few inches from the kerb in the roadway and clearly defined.”

It has been suggested that these spots might have been caused by blood dripping from the ambulance but is this really very likely given the time that would have elapsed between the time of the murder and the removal of the body from Buck’s Row at around 4.30 (around an hour or so) Could it have been the case that the killer heard something that spooked him and he panicked (it was probably his first murder after all) He then fled carrying the bloodied knife in his hand and the two spots came from it.

Pushing it further could it be possible for further drips as the killer perhaps ran into Brady Street? I’m unsure about this? Then (also from Lloyd’s):

“The trail was easily followed down Brady-street for 150 yards to Honey's-mews. In front of the gateway there was a large stain, looking as if the bleeding person had fallen against the wall and lain there.”

Might our killer have also got some blood on his clothing at the scene and as he ran into Brady Street he crosses the road (twice according to the papers) to keep out of sight of someone perhaps, or to get to a street lamp which would have made it easier for him to check himself for blood before getting to his eventual destination. Out of breath he drops down and sits in front of the gateway for a short rest, inadvertently transferring blood from his clothing to the ground

Hi Herlock,

If the perpetrator made his escape towards Brady St, wouldn't he have run into Paul and/or Cross?

Might I suggest that perhaps these blood drops may have related to the Colville incident rather than the Nichols murder?

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

It is an interesting thread Chris. The only point that comes to mind for me is this…


LLOYD'S WEEKLY NEWSPAPER

LONDON: SUNDAY, SEPT. 2, 1888.

"Shortly after noon on Friday some men while searching the pavement in Buck's-row, above the gateway, in a different direction to that from which the woman came, or was brought, found two large spots of blood, and each about the size of a shilling. The first was about 25 feet from the gateway and the second 10 feet beyond. Both were a few inches from the kerb in the roadway and clearly defined.”

It has been suggested that these spots might have been caused by blood dripping from the ambulance but is this really very likely given the time that would have elapsed between the time of the murder and the removal of the body from Buck’s Row at around 4.30 (around an hour or so) Could it have been the case that the killer heard something that spooked him and he panicked (it was probably his first murder after all) He then fled carrying the bloodied knife in his hand and the two spots came from it.

Pushing it further could it be possible for further drips as the killer perhaps ran into Brady Street? I’m unsure about this? Then (also from Lloyd’s):

“The trail was easily followed down Brady-street for 150 yards to Honey's-mews. In front of the gateway there was a large stain, looking as if the bleeding person had fallen against the wall and lain there.”

Might our killer have also got some blood on his clothing at the scene and as he ran into Brady Street he crosses the road (twice according to the papers) to keep out of sight of someone perhaps, or to get to a street lamp which would have made it easier for him to check himself for blood before getting to his eventual destination. Out of breath he drops down and sits in front of the gateway for a short rest, inadvertently transferring blood from his clothing to the ground

Great Post Herlock


I think that Mr Blomer may have something to say regarding this little mystery.


For me there have lways been unexplained anomalies surrounding the Nichols murder scene.

None of which have anything to do with Lechmere.


Which is ironic really.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It is an interesting thread Chris. The only point that comes to mind for me is this…


LLOYD'S WEEKLY NEWSPAPER

LONDON: SUNDAY, SEPT. 2, 1888.

"Shortly after noon on Friday some men while searching the pavement in Buck's-row, above the gateway, in a different direction to that from which the woman came, or was brought, found two large spots of blood, and each about the size of a shilling. The first was about 25 feet from the gateway and the second 10 feet beyond. Both were a few inches from the kerb in the roadway and clearly defined.”

It has been suggested that these spots might have been caused by blood dripping from the ambulance but is this really very likely given the time that would have elapsed between the time of the murder and the removal of the body from Buck’s Row at around 4.30 (around an hour or so) Could it have been the case that the killer heard something that spooked him and he panicked (it was probably his first murder after all) He then fled carrying the bloodied knife in his hand and the two spots came from it.

Pushing it further could it be possible for further drips as the killer perhaps ran into Brady Street? I’m unsure about this? Then (also from Lloyd’s):

“The trail was easily followed down Brady-street for 150 yards to Honey's-mews. In front of the gateway there was a large stain, looking as if the bleeding person had fallen against the wall and lain there.”

Might our killer have also got some blood on his clothing at the scene and as he ran into Brady Street he crosses the road (twice according to the papers) to keep out of sight of someone perhaps, or to get to a street lamp which would have made it easier for him to check himself for blood before getting to his eventual destination. Out of breath he drops down and sits in front of the gateway for a short rest, inadvertently transferring blood from his clothing to the ground

[The Rookie Detective]

Over 10 years, so thought it was time for a bump up of this most excellent thread.

[David Orsam]

Regarding the idea that the incident witnessed by Sarah and Charlotte Colwell happened shortly after midnight, I believe the following is the source for that. However, this doesn't seem to be describing the same incident.

In Buck's Row, naturally, the greatest excitement prevails, and several persons in the neighbourhood state than an affray occurred shortly after midnight, but no screams were heard, nor anything beyond what might have been considered evidence of an ordinary brawl. In any case, the police unfortunately will have great difficulty in bringing to justice the murderer or murderers. - East London Observer, Sept. 1st, 1888

Tom, I have found the original source of this midnight affray story. It comes from the last sentence of a Central News report which first appeared in the second edition of the Globe of 31 August 1888, helpfully timed as 12:30pm of that day. It is worth reproducing in full as below:

"SECOND EDITION
GLOBE OFFICE, 367, Strand, 12.30 p.m.
ANOTHER WHITECHAPEL MYSTERY
BRUTAL MURDER OF A WOMAN
The Central News says: - Scarcely have the horror and sensation caused by the discovery of the murdered woman in Whitechapel some short time ago had time to abate, when another discovery is made, which for the brutality exercised on the victim, is even more glaringly outrageous and horrible. The affair up to the present is enveloped in mystery, and the police have as yet no evidence to trace the perpetrators of the outrage. The facts are that as constable John Neil was walking down Bucks-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel, about a quarter to four o’clock this morning he discovered a woman between 35 and 40 years of age lying at the side of the street with her throat cut from ear to ear. The wound was about two inches wide, and the woman was lying in a pool of blood. She was conveyed to the Whitechapel Mortuary, when it was found that besides the wound in the throat, the lower part of her body was shockingly mutilated, the injuries, which were of a sickening nature, having apparently been effected with a large knife. As the body lies in the mortuary it presents a ghastly sight. The victim is a woman 5ft. 2in. in height. The hands are bruised and bear evidence of having engaged in a severe struggle. There is the impression of a ring having been worn on one of the deceased’s fingers, but there is nothing to show that it had been wrenched from her in a struggle. Some of the front teeth have been knocked out, and the face is bruised on both cheeks, and very much discoloured. The deceased wore a rough brown ulster, with large buttons in front. Her clothes are torn and cut up in several places, bearing evidence of the ferocity with which the murder was committed. The only way by which the police can prosecute an inquiry at present is by finding some one who can identify the deceased and then, if possible, trace those in whose company she was last seen. In Buck’s-row the greatest excitement prevails, and several persons in the neighbourhood state that an affray occurred shortly after midnight, but no screams were heard, nor was anything noticed beyond what might have been considered evidence of an ordinary brawl."

In passing, we may also note that this shows that the Central News was circulating a report that Neil found the body at 3:45am prior to 12:30pm on the Friday, something relevant to another thread.

[Abby Normal]

Hi David
So what if blood drops were found in Brady street? It could be from anything, or it might not even have not been blood.

What's the point and how does it tie into your theory? What is your theory? And or what's your big theory?

Hi David
Never mind my questions, I just read through the entire thread and found your theory.