Mary Ann Nichols

[detective abberline]

Polly's life until she met Jack is pretty well documented. We know where she was until the 30th August which is when she met Jack. No one has come forward from Bucks Row and from the reports no-one knew anything was happening. Which gives credence to the quick slash scross the throat from right to left so it doesn't splash him.

Are you like me? I wish I knew...I want to know

[johnnyerwin]

I have to disagree. A "quick slash" across the throat would create a bit of blood spray wouldn't you think? There was no sign of this in the area. There was bruising evidence on her chin consistent with someone either holding her jaw firmly while cutting or perhaps from choking her. I'm fairly comfortable with the idea that she was prone and likely dead already from strangulation when the throat cut was made.

In addition, why would you say she met "Jack" on the 30th? She was seen quite alive already in the wee hours of the 31st and not in the company of anyone. The time of encounter with her killer would seem to be placed somewhere between 3:15 and 3:45 on the 31st.

[Jon Guy]

Mrs Harriet Lilley of Bucks Row had a restless night`s sleep and reported hearing at around 03.30 am ( she fixed the time by a luggage train that passed her house ) the sounds of a moan and gasps, followed by whispers.

[johnnyerwin]

Mrs Harriet Lilley of Bucks Row had a restless night`s sleep and reported hearing at around 03.30 am ( she fixed the time by a luggage train that passed her house ) the sounds of a moan and gasps, followed by whispers.

I believe that was only ever reported in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper on Sunday September 9th, and may not be entirely accurate. If true, it's odd that this was never mentioned in any of the inquests.

[Jon Guy]

A Mrs Lilley and her husband did live in Bucks Row, and the railway line was certainly behind the house, and judging by PC Neals beat, the murder took place around 03.30 am.

The only two reasons I can think of for why she was not a the inquest are that the police failed to interview her that morning, or "hearing sounds" was not valued as evidence, especially when it was not realised that this was the begining of a series.

[johnnyerwin]

A Mrs Lilley and her husband did live in Bucks Row, and the railway line was certainly behind the house, and judging by PC Neals beat, the murder took place around 03.30 am.

The only two reasons I can think of for why she was not a the inquest are that the police failed to interview her that morning, or "hearing sounds" was not valued as evidence, especially when it was not realised that this was the begining of a series.

Well the timings certainly are within the window that all the other evidence suggests, so I wouldn't be too surprised if this was accurate, however it does seem weird that people who were closer to the body didn't hear anything.

BTW, from where did you obtain proof that this is a real person? Was she in any of the census records?

[Jon Guy]

BTW, from where did you obtain proof that this is a real person? Was she in any of the census records?

Yes, somewhere here on Casebook are the census records for Bucks Row, possibly under the "victims - Nichols" menu, if you scroll down the Nichols page they are at the end. They are listed there.

[johnnyerwin]

Yes, somewhere here on Casebook are the census records for Bucks Row, possibly under the "victims - Nichols" menu, if you scroll down the Nichols page they are at the end. They are listed there.

Ah yes, I see them there. Thank you.

[paul emmett]

I believe that[Harriet Lilley's statement] was only ever reported in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper on Sunday September 9th, and may not be entirely accurate. If true, it's odd that this was never mentioned in any of the inquests.

Lilley's statement about the moans, gasps and whispers did appear in THE ECHO for Thursday, Sept. 6, and it was made that day. Pretty late, but certianly in time to be presented at the last two sessions of the inquest.
And it does seem strange that it wasn't. The Echo showed that the train schedule confirmed Lilley's timing: there was indeed a train at 3:30. Jon has shown that Mrs. L was real, and living at 7 Buck's Row. And while it might seem weird that, as johnnyerwin suggests, people nearer heard nothing, there are two considerations here. Mrs. Lilley was close--they said both two doors away and a few yards--AND Green and Purkis seem to be sound sleepers since they slept through the noises of the body being discovered, ultimately having to be woken up by the police.

It does seem odd. Does anyone have thoughts or info on Mrs. L?

[Tom_Wescott]

My thoughts on Mrs. Lilley are now that she was probably accurate in her testimony. The moans and gasps were Nichols, the whispers being Cross and Paul. Unfortunately, her evidence adds very little to our knowledge of the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[paul emmett]

On that Thursday night I[Harriet Lilley] was somehow very restless. Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was dark, but a luggage train went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distinctly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint. I then woke my husband, and said to him, "I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep to-night." Mrs. Lilley added that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The cries were very different from those of an ordinary street brawl.
It has been ascertained that on the morning of the date of the murder a goods train passed on the East London railway at about half-past three - the 3.7 out from New-cross - which was probably the time when Mary Ann Nicholls was either killed or placed in Buck's-row THE ECHO

Hi, Tom.

IF the moan and gasps are Polly's, some things speak against the whisperers being Cross and Paul. Timing: Paul says he left his house at 3:45, so his whispering can't be before 3:50. Lilley's statement implies that the moans, gasps and whispers were at the "same" time, sequential most likely. If the train comes at 3:30?

Even if it didn't come exactly on time, Llewellyn says the mutilations took 4-5 minutes, so there has to be a significant time gap between Polly's dying gasps and Cross and Paul. Also would they whisper so that Mrs, L could hear a moan, but not what they said? I ain't sure.

[Tom_Wescott]

The whispers followed the gasping or moaning, and Cross and Paul were likely on the scene immediately following the murder (I'm of the opinion Cross unknowingly chased the Ripper away). I find this scenario far easier to believe than that the Ripper was actually two people whispering over their kill.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[paul emmett]

The whispers followed the gasping or moaning, and Cross and Paul were likely on the scene immediately following the murder (I'm of the opinion Cross unknowingly chased the Ripper away). I find this scenario far easier to believe than that the Ripper was actually two people whispering over their kill.

I am sure most folks do, but there's always Scwartz and Tabram.

I, too, think Cross scared off JTR--espescially since I just read your fine article.

Have a good evening.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thank you for the kind compliment, Paul. And I'd never considered that it might have been Schwartz and Tabram whispering over Nichols' corpse. Sounds perfectly workable to me. Just kidding, I know what you mean, and I did consider that, although in both of those cases the whispering occured prior to the murder and not after.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sdreid]

The mutilations took 4-5 minutes? I don't see why they couldn't have been done in less than a minute? People can run a mile in 4 minutes.