Mary Ann Nichols

[Chava]

...and of course we're taking Mrs Green's word for it that she's a light sleeper. In fact she might sleep like the dead, but 'I'm a light sleeper' sounds so much more high-toned! Like those women who say they eat like birds, yet somehow they weigh 25 stone. It's this kind of stuff that leads to the stories about the Ripper's legendary stealthiness. I'm not suggesting he's loud. But it's entirely possible he's quiet enough not to wake a bunch of normally-sleeping people. And normally-sleeping people can sleep through a lot. This is something I just found out, as it happens, last night. Our next-door-neighbours are away for Easter. There is a smoke/CO alarm in their house yelling its head off. We looked/smelled through the letterbox but couldn't find anything, and we thought it might be an almost-dead battery because sometimes in those alarms they sound to let you know they're almost out. But 10 hours later, in the small hours, it was still shrilling. After some debate we called the fire department, begging them not to come out all sirens blaring, to check it out as we didn't have a key. They came up our narrow street along with a cop car, and the firemen and the cops all snooped around but good, and weren't particularly quiet about it. No one woke up in the other houses. It's still blaring away--the FD thinks it's a faulty alarm. So after that experience of sleepers, I'm thinking any noise would have to be Really Loud to wake most people from sleep!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Sure indeed, Mrs Green might have been rambling when she said she was a light sleeper, but then again we have Walter Purkiss living just opposite the murder scene and who was awake on several occasions during the night, and nor he or his family heard or saw a thing.

For the record, I don't think the Ripper was THAT quiet or soundless - if the talking between two people and the word 'no' Cadosh heard really came from Annie in the Hanbury Street yard, then the crimes weren't committed during total silence. I think he was fast, however, and very effective in leaving the crime scenes unseen. But I also think he was lucky in some respect.

Fact remains, that Mrs Lilley's account is only a story appearing in the papers and not in any police reports, and - in contrast to the one delivered by Mrs Mortimer (the Stride murder) - is not verified or corroborated in any way. And even if it were, there is a huge possibility that what she is supposed to have heard had nothing to do with Polly Nichols at all.
A newspaper story, one of many - that's all.

All the best

[FrankO]

Hi Glenn,

Fact remains, that Mrs Lilley's account is only a story appearing in the papers and not in any police reports,...

Fact remains, too, that she only made her newspaper statement a week after the murder, while in it she claimed that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The logical thing would be to go tell the police about it as soon as she could and I can't really imagine that she wouldn't have found out about the murder any later than the very morning following the murder.

So, she either didn't tell the police, which would be odd if we are to believe her claim, or she did but the police came to the conclusion that her story had no bearing on the murder.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

With the risk of repeating myself; the fact that neither Purkiss or Green heard anything does not go to prove that Lilley did not. Like Chava points out, assuring that you are a light sleeper need not hold all that much water, and as for Purkiss, stating that he was awake during periods of the night goes eminently to show that he was not during others. At the inquest, he said that if there had been any screaming in Buckīs Row that night, he would have heard it. That is not the same as an assertion that he would have heard a whispering conversation from underneath Harriet Lilleys window, is it? And being an only earwitness to something does not equal being either wrong or a liar.
It is all a moot point, however, as what Lilley claimed to have heard would not have had any connection with the Rippers strike.

The best, all!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Glenn,

Fact remains, too, that she only made her newspaper statement a week after the murder, while in it she claimed that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The logical thing would be to go tell the police about it as soon as she could and I can't really imagine that she wouldn't have found out about the murder any later than the very morning following the murder.

So, she either didn't tell the police, which would be odd if we are to believe her claim, or she did but the police came to the conclusion that her story had no bearing on the murder.

All the best,
Frank

Exactly Frank. Well put.

All the best

[Tom_Wescott]

You guys sure you all got your facts straight on Lilley? Some things aren't ringing right.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

None of the other residents in Buck's Row heard or noticed anything. Emma Green - who lived in the New Cottage house closest to the gates diagonally over the murder site and considered herself to be a very light sleeper - heard or saw nothing.
Walter Purkiss - the resident in Essex Wharf and who had been awake on several occasions during the night - had heard or noticed nothing. Nor did anyone else in the area. And they were all interwieved by the police - Lilley wasn't.

Inspector Spratling was embarrassed by the Coroner at the inquest when he was questioned about the number of residents of Bucks Row interviewed that morning.

It does appear that only a few locals were questioned,namely those of Mrs Green`s house and the Essex Wharf.

[Fisherman]

Yes, Jon, it seems the interviews with the neighbours were perhaps not extended to mrs Lilley. The Daily Telegraph records it:
"Witness also visited half a dozen persons living in the same neighbourhood, none of whom had noticed anything at all suspicious."
That, though - as seems always to be the case with things Ripper-related - could mean that Lilley was counted in - or out...

If we turn to the Times, it records mr Purkiss as saying that his wife had been pacing the room at the time Nichols was slain. But then again, the only way mr Purkiss would have known that for sure, was if he had been awake to record the events. Clearly he was not, and so this assertion of his would have rested on his wife telling him that she was up and about at the time. Sort of. Just aboutīs. Which does not add up to much of a certainty...

The best,
Fisherman

[nicole]

Hi all,

It's clear that Jack was a 'trophy-taker' and all evidence with Nichols suggests that he was disturbed. I mean, why go to all the bother of killing Nichols and open her abdomen and NOT take something? Most people suggest that Cross most probably disturbed Jack. But think of this....

Mrs. Lilley woke up and couldn't get back to sleep (even woke her poor husband up to tell him so). And Mrs. Purkiss was possibly pacing her room at time of the murder (approx. 3:30am). What if Lilley or Purkiss simply lit a lamp or candle. This would be enough to 'spook' Jumpy Jack.

Just a thought.

Nicole

[Dan Norder]

I mean, why go to all the bother of killing Nichols and open her abdomen and NOT take something?

Plenty of serial killers put deep gashes into their victims without taking anything. You can't assume that something he did in later murders was on his mind in earlier ones. You might as well say that he had intended to mutilate the faces of Nichols and Chapman but had gotten interrupted -- why bother to go to the trouble of killing them and NOT mutilate the face?

[Jon Guy]

Yes, Jon, it seems the interviews with the neighbours were perhaps not extended to mrs Lilley. The Daily Telegraph records it:
"Witness also visited half a dozen persons living in the same neighbourhood, none of whom had noticed anything at all suspicious."
That, though - as seems always to be the case with things Ripper-related - could mean that Lilley was counted in - or out...

Hello Fisherman

Further to our discussion, I re-read the inquest coverage, from the Times, where Insp Spratling confirms that the only places they made enquiries in Bucks Row that morning were :

Mrs Green`s
Essex Wharf
the watchman at Sneiders factory
the keeper at the Board School
Great Eastern Wharf
the gateman at the Great Eastern Railway.

That`ll probably be why Harriet Lilley never made it to the inquest.

[Fisherman]

Excellent stuff, Jon! Includes Purkiss and Green, excludes Lilley - and a good number of other residents living fairly close to the spot where Nichols was killed. So much for the "she must have been interviewed and dismissed"-stuff!
One canīt help wondering, though, whether a police representant was dispatched to 7 Buckīs Row after the Echo article ...

All the best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Hi Fisherman,

The notion that the police didn't come knocking on her door wouldn't in any way have prevented her to go to the police herself. Certainly in light of Lilley's belief that the voices she heard were in some way connected with Nichols' murder, it would have been very odd if she wouldn't have done this.

What seems a bit odd, too, is that she did hear the moaning and the whispers, but remained oblivious to Neil's arriving, Thain's dashing by her house and all the moving around and talking that took place close below her window directly following the discovery of the body. This must not have been very long after the moaning and the whispers.

Plus, in view of the fact that at least Inspector Helson was at the crime scene some time after 7 a.m., I can't help wondering when and how she did hear about the murder...

All the best,
Frank

[nicole]

Plenty of serial killers put deep gashes into their victims without taking anything. You can't assume that something he did in later murders was on his mind in earlier ones. You might as well say that he had intended to mutilate the faces of Nichols and Chapman but had gotten interrupted -- why bother to go to the trouble of killing them and NOT mutilate the face?

I think that we ARE entitled to assume that Jack had a trophy in mind with Nichols. Why? Because everything points to him having been interrupted. And the fact that, just eight days later, he successfully obtained trophies from Chapman.

I won't comment on the second part of your post because it's rather petty (in my opinion, of course).

sincerely

Nicky

[Fisherman]

Frank van Oploo writes:

"The notion that the police didn't come knocking on her door wouldn't in any way have prevented her to go to the police herself. Certainly in light of Lilley's belief that the voices she heard were in some way connected with Nichols' murder, it would have been very odd if she wouldn't have done this.

What seems a bit odd, too, is that she did hear the moaning and the whispers, but remained oblivious to Neil's arriving, Thain's dashing by her house and all the moving around and talking that took place close below her window directly following the discovery of the body. This must not have been very long after the moaning and the whispers.

Plus, in view of the fact that at least Inspector Helson was at the crime scene some time after 7 a.m., I can't help wondering when and how she did hear about the murder..."

Frank!

Of course nobody prevented her from going to the police. That, however, does in no way go to prove that she would have.
To begin with, I think our safest bet here is to accept that she did not go to the police. Considering her story, it would have been odd if she was just dismissed.
If she did not go, there may be lots of answers as to why, and though we can of course throw forward a number of them - not being comfortable with the police, having a grudge against them etcetera - there is with all certainty no way we are going to be able to pinpoint it.

As for PC:s Neil and Thain and the hullabaloo that followed the murder, what makes you think that it went unnnoticed by Harriet Lilley?

The best, Frank!
Fisherman