What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[Batman]

So what Cadosch heard could not have had anything to do with the murder of Annie Chapman.

How much time do you have to shift around for things to line up? 5min? 10min? We see time estimates throughout this case that clash but don't when you allow for approximations to not be exact.

[Simon Wood]

You should ask that question of Wynne Baxter.

He mangled and manipulated the Annie Chapman time-frame almost out of all recognition.

The Ripper mystery is a collection of disparate facts stuck together with BS.

[packers stem]

There is blood spray on the fence next to where Chapman's neck was nearly decapitated.

Afraid not
There was a smear on the fence
Very different

[Batman]

You should ask that question of Wynne Baxter.

He mangled and manipulated the Annie Chapman time-frame almost out of all recognition.

The Ripper mystery is a collection of disparate facts stuck together with BS.

Even in modern day crimes, times can be estimates. That means you allow for the time to be less than or greater than the estimate because that is what an estimate is.

I have read the case and there is nothing unusual about the timing at all and the evidence lines up with it. The timing is no more unusual than many other crimes.

[packers stem]

The point here is the capability to carry things without problems.

No .The point is the conditions , knowing the terrain and the workers operated in daylight .
Different to some super human feat in darkness when unfamiliar with where you are going ...... still carrying a torso , a leg , a shovel and a lamp .
Do you not think the obvious answer is more than one ?

How do you know this wasn't where he was keeping it for that very purpose?

Because workmen were in and out , tool storage etc .I presume you don't mean Pinchin street archway as a storage point ?

He doesn't have to watch each layer or mortar per brick to go down to figure out what the ones closest to the road look like. How do you know the hoardings were not possible to look over or could be 'sat' on for everyone to notice him?

I can't remember the exact height but have read it on press report where they mentioned access was through a gateway (it was between 8 and 12 foot if I remember )
Either way ,the answer is no

[Simon Wood]

Time was a crucial component in the Whitechapel murders.

Coroner: [Nichols] was last seen alive at half-past two o'clock on Saturday morning.

PC Neil: At 3.45 am . . .

PC Mizen: At 3.45 am . . .

PC Thain: At 3.45 am . . .

Mrs Long: I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to [Hanbury] street.

Cadosch: It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church.

PC James Harvey: At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.

Diemschitz: I returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street.

Hutchinson: It was between 10 and 5 minutes to 2 o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church.

Hutchinson: When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck 3 o'clock.

[MrBarnett]

Afraid not
There was a smear on the fence
Very different

To Batman a smear equates to dudgeon gouts of blood. A man who thrusts a stick into a woman's vagina becomes 'covered with blood' when he retrieves it.

[Batman]

Time was a crucial component in the Whitechapel murders.

Coroner: [Nichols] was last seen alive at half-past two o'clock on Saturday morning.

PC Neil: At 3.45 am . . .

PC Mizen: At 3.45 am . . .

PC Thain: At 3.45 am . . .

Mrs Long: I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to [Hanbury] street.

Cadosch: It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church.

PC James Harvey: At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.

Diemschitz: I returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street.

Hutchinson: It was between 10 and 5 minutes to 2 o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church.

Hutchinson: When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck 3 o'clock.

It is also crucial that we remain aware that witness memories are not expected to be exact. If we allow for approximations then you can align things well with that natural leeway because we are talking about memories.

[packers stem]

Time was a crucial component in the Whitechapel murders.

Coroner: [Nichols] was last seen alive at half-past two o'clock on Saturday morning.

PC Neil: At 3.45 am . . .

PC Mizen: At 3.45 am . . .

PC Thain: At 3.45 am . . .

Mrs Long: I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to [Hanbury] street.

Cadosch: It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church.

PC James Harvey: At twenty-eight minutes past one o'clock I passed the post-office clock.

Diemschitz: I returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street.

Hutchinson: It was between 10 and 5 minutes to 2 o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church.

Hutchinson: When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck 3 o'clock.

Not forgetting Mrs 'kennedy one day Lewis the next'

About three o'clock. ....(star 10th)

Between two and three (statement)

Half past two "I know the time by having looked at spitalfields church clock as I passed it" (inquest)

Startling memory recovery

Interesting that kennedy's press statement fails to suit a certain 'portly' man watching the court .
When the time changes to 2.30 ..... so does the sighting

[jerryd]

If he entered bottom right it's not a maze anymore. It reduces the complexity. It's not mission impossible. Left and left again. He isn't going far.

All depends if the bottom right is an entrance or not.

Hi Batman,

I’m all for alternative explanations but what you say disputes what the witnesses who worked there on a daily basis are saying. Here is one example.

Times October 9, 1888

By the Jury. - I went down to the vault by a way I knew from where I worked. I could get there without going down planks. I could not see in the recess or vault without striking a match, it was so dark even in daytime, and people who did not know the place could not have found there way there.

There were three entrances. Two on Cannon Row and one on the eastern, embankment side. The gates were all as high as the hoarding. They had locks except one on Cannon Street that had a string latch that required knowledge on how to open it. If a person did climb the hoarding they would find themselves standing on the sub- basement floor. From there they would have to navigate down two planks to the basement and then through a series of crypts to find this particular vault. That’s why the men hid their tools there. It was a very hard place to reach.

The clip I posted above is testimony from Frederick Wildbore. He apparently knew an easier way using a compo floor rather than the planks. But, as he and others stated, it required a light and knowledge of the works to get there.

[jerryd]

Thanks to Harryd for this gem.

Sheffield Evening Telegraph
11 October 1888
AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY
An extraordinary story is going the round of journalistic circles in connection with the mysterious discovery on the Thames Embankment. It will be remembered that the woman's remains were found on the Monday afternoon of last week. The previous evening, however, a man went to most of the daily newspaper offices, saw the respective subeditors[?] and inquired if they had heard of a woman's body being discovered on the Embankment. The man evidently expected remuneration, but, in accordance with practice, was required to call again after inquiries had been made. Reporters were despatched in hot haste to Westminster, and calls were made at all the police stations and other likely quarters, but without result, no discovery of the kind reported having been made. In less than twenty-four hours the remains of the unknown woman were found between the Embankment and Whitehall at the spot previously described. If this reported discovery was a hoax, and a strange coincidence, it is very singular indeed. Moreover, the man who called at the newspaper offices did not call a second time.

This report is incorrect in it states the body was discovered on Monday. It was actually formally found on Tuesday. The report goes on to say the previous day a man went to the sub-editors to report the body. That would be on Monday. On Monday, however, the body had in fact been discovered. TWICE! By the same man and his mate. He didn’t report the discovery until the third time he saw it on Tuesday. Those two men are Wildbore and Lawrence. Both residing in Battersea.

Enter John Arnold for the first time. This is my opinion, not a fact. The man asked for a reward just as Arnold did in the Pinchin case a year later. Two bodies, both possibly murdered on or near the 8th of September, and both predicted before the bodies were placed where they were predicted to be placed.

You said some of us use coincidences too much Batman? Is this a coincidence?

[Batman]

Thanks to Harryd for this gem.

Sheffield Evening Telegraph
11 October 1888
AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY
An extraordinary story is going the round of journalistic circles in connection with the mysterious discovery on the Thames Embankment. It will be remembered that the woman's remains were found on the Monday afternoon of last week. The previous evening, however, a man went to most of the daily newspaper offices, saw the respective subeditors[?] and inquired if they had heard of a woman's body being discovered on the Embankment. The man evidently expected remuneration, but, in accordance with practice, was required to call again after inquiries had been made. Reporters were despatched in hot haste to Westminster, and calls were made at all the police stations and other likely quarters, but without result, no discovery of the kind reported having been made. In less than twenty-four hours the remains of the unknown woman were found between the Embankment and Whitehall at the spot previously described. If this reported discovery was a hoax, and a strange coincidence, it is very singular indeed. Moreover, the man who called at the newspaper offices did not call a second time.

This report is incorrect in it states the body was discovered on Monday. It was actually formally found on Tuesday. The report goes on to say the previous day a man went to the sub-editors to report the body. That would be on Monday. On Monday, however, the body had in fact been discovered. TWICE! By the same man and his mate. He didn’t report the discovery until the third time he saw it on Tuesday. Those two men are Wildbore and Lawrence. Both residing in Battersea.

Enter John Arnold for the first time. This is my opinion, not a fact. The man asked for a reward just as Arnold did in the Pinchin case a year later. Two bodies, both possibly murdered on or near the 8th of September, and both predicted before the bodies were placed where they were predicted to be placed.

You said some of us use coincidences too much Batman? Is this a coincidence?

Something like this is obviously an eye-opener and hardly a coincidence. If it were, we would hire them to use their crystal balls to predict scenes of crimes.

However, as you said, if the dates are wrong that might explain it, but also the place they described might not have been found properly by reporters. Can you imagine being an investigator learning this at the time? Wouldn't a newspaper report, like this one, have drawn the attention of the investigators to these rather strange events?

By the way, a sack with a body you are going to dump doesn't have to be treated like a sack of your best chinaware. You can throw it over things and ahead of you. Sure, two or more people can carry this out, but I am wondering if we need to introduce more complexity (more than one person) to explain it. After all, one of these workers could have done it on their own.

[MrBarnett]

Jerry,

Didn't these two men have curiously similar biographies? And didn't one of them have several geographical points in common with Alice Kinsey?

I'd forgotten the second man was Lawrence. That was the name of Mrs Hewitt's drover.

Apologies for the detour.

Gary

[jerryd]

Jerry,

Didn't these two men have curiously similar biographies? And didn't one of them have several geographical points in common with Alice Kinsey?

I'd forgotten the second man was Lawrence. That was the name of Mrs Hewitt's drover.

Apologies for the detour.

Gary

Hi Gary,

They both had fathers that committed suicide. If that’s what you mean? I think you found the article on Richard Lawrences fathers suicide.

Wildbore was from Peterborough, yes. He also lived in Tottenham. Alice was supposedly meeting a man she once knew in Tottenham the night she was murdered.

I’ve had the same thought about Lawrence and connection with Mary Kelly. At the time, he was a laborer working with Wildbore at the police building. I’ll have to look back at the census records on him. If I remember correctly, he also lived at one tme very close to the Pancras Lock where parts of the Rainham torso were dumped.