What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor
It can't be excluded, but nothing to prove it was used at that time, on that night, nor really anything to even suggest such happened in the hour before the discovery of Polly, that I have found.

Steve

I wasnt suggesting that night but of course we do not know for sure. I was speaking generally and recapping my early years on the beat when at night warm places were taken advantage of.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

The boss, Alfred Barber, lived 'over the shop' and he seems to have been a respectable sort of chap. A freemason and later a local councilor, his wife was several months' pregnant at the time of Polly's murder. Henry Tomkins seems to have been a relative new boy who'd only been in Whitechapel for a few months. The other two lads were Essex boys. (The Barbers were also Essex farmers). HT, with no doubt a heavy Mancunian accent, was very much the odd one out. I find it strange that he was the only one to give evidence at the inquest. Perhaps the reason was that he had run ahead of his mates to be first at the scene.

Looking at other employees of the yard, the business was very much a family affair: Barbers and their in-laws and several generations of other families over the years (including my own).

[Fisherman]

Did I say or imply that we had precise measurements? No, I didn't. Did I say or imply that the (two) strips of flesh removed from Jackson's abdomen were nowhere near as large as the (three) flaps removed from Kelly's? Yes, I did. Because it's true, that's why.

I did NOT mislead.

My last post here on this issue:

Thanks for admitting that you have no measurements. You can therefore not say whether the flaps from Jackson were smaller than Kellys´ditto or not.

Kelly had three flaps removed, and her entire abdominal wall was gone.

Jackson had two flaps removed, and they were described in the papers as "the lower abdomen of a woman".

Ergo, it may well be that Kelly had her abdomen removed in three flaps, the two lower of them exact replicas of Jacksons flaps, and representing the whole of the lower abdomen. The third flap was then the entire upper abdomen.

This you cannot disprove in any way. We don´t know the exact shape of either flap in either case. Kellys flaps are not described at all when it comes to their shapes.

However - and this is THE most important point: To enter a discussion about whether the flaps were exactly similar or not is to play along in a fools game, indicating that the flaps MUST be exactly or roughly similar in shape and size to point to a common denominator.

Such thinking is of course sheer madness - regardless of HOW the flaps looked, they were all described as large flaps, and we therefore have two murders involving the removal of the abdominal wall in large flaps. And accordingly, we have with nigh on absolute certainty the same killer at work.

That is how easy it is.

Now, back to the thread aim.

[MrBarnett]

I wasnt suggesting that night but of course we do not know for sure. I was speaking generally and recapping my early years on the beat when at night warm places were taken advantage of.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,

I'd always imagined you lot carried a flask of tea and a cheese roll around inside your 'elmets.��

Gary

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

I'd always imagined you lot carried a flask of tea and a cheese roll around inside your 'elmets.��

Gary

No plenty of freebies on the beat ! lol

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

I wasnt suggesting that night but of course we do not know for sure. I was speaking generally and recapping my early years on the beat when at night warm places were taken advantage of.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I agree, we know thain's cape got there, but no exactly how.

He said he gave it to another officer(surely Neil) but the HB guys don't mention it at all.


Steve

[Trevor Marriott]

I agree, we know thain's cape got there, but no exactly how.

He said he gave it to another officer(surely Neil) but the HB guys don't mention it at all.


Steve

Well I think in shows that it was a place frequented at night by police irrespective of who left it there

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Steve,

I'm not sure if you are considering the possibility of something rather disreputable going on in the yard on a frequent, even organised, basis?


You may remember I was keen to trace the 'horse coroner', the local official who by law was supposed to oversee the killing of all the animals in the yard. Over at HBs Islington yard, the equivalent man did just that, and actually lived on the premises. He got so close to the business that he actually ran it for a time while John Harrison was ill and nearly got the sack in consequence. In Whitechapel, though, the regime was much more lax and their 'horse coroner', John Hall, apparently just turned up once a week to collect his dosh (6d per horse). Curiously he was also the local registrar and it was he who signed Polly's death cert.

[Elamarna]

The boss, Alfred Barber, lived 'over the shop' and he seems to have been a respectable sort of chap. A freemason and later a local councilor, his wife was several months' pregnant at the time of Polly's murder. Henry Tomkins seems to have been a relative new boy who'd only been in Whitechapel for a few months. The other two lads were Essex boys. (The Barbers were also Essex farmers). HT, with no doubt a heavy Mancunian accent, was very much the odd one out. I find it strange that he was the only one to give evidence at the inquest. Perhaps the reason was that he had run ahead of his mates to be first at the scene.

Looking at other employees of the yard, the business was very much a family affair: Barbers and their in-laws and several generations of other families over the years (including my own).

Thats a question I have posed, in both my article in Ripperologist earlier in the year, and in the upcoming book.
WHY HT, OVER THE OTHER TWO?
was he requested by the police, or did his "mates" put him forward?, or did he volunteer if the Police simply request 1?

Steve


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Thats a question I have posed, in both my article in Ripperologist earlier in the year, and in the upcoming book.
WHY HT, OVER THE OTHER TWO?
was he requested by the police, or did his "mates" put him forward?, or did he volunteer if the Police simply request 1?

Steve


Steve

I think in the interview Mumford gave he suggested 'they' were due to give evidence. Perhaps their written statements were almost identical but HT had the edge because he was first at the scene? I bet Wynne Baxter regretted that decision. Served him right, sarcky barsteward.👍

[Simon Wood]

Inspector Abberline wrote—

"Suspicion was also attached to three men employed during the night of the murders by Messrs. Barber & Co., "Horse Slaughterers" Winthrop Street which is about 30 yards from where the body was found. They have however been seen separately and lengthy statements taken from them as to how they spent their time during the night, and the explanations given by them were confirmed by the police who saw them at work, and no grounds appeared to exist to suspect them of the murders."

Neat, huh?

[MrBarnett]

Inspector Abberline wrote—

"Suspicion was also attached to three men employed during the night of the murders by Messrs. Barber & Co., "Horse Slaughterers" Winthrop Street which is about 30 yards from where the body was found. They have however been seen separately and lengthy statements taken from them as to how they spent their time during the night, and the explanations given by them were confirmed by the police who saw them at work, and no grounds appeared to exist to suspect them of the murders."

Neat, huh?

Too neat, if you ask me.

[jerryd]

A simple piece of string would solve that particular problem.

Is there any chance that you can provide a map that shows us the difficulties involved? How many turns did he have to negotiate, for example?

This is the best I can do atm. The red recatangle at the bottom is where I estimate the torso was discovered based on all the evidence. The half moon markings around the perimeter were the vaults. The vault where the torso was discovered was 15ft x 20ft if IIRC.

[Batman]

This is the best I can do atm. The red recatangle at the bottom is where I estimate the torso was discovered based on all the evidence. The half moon markings around the perimeter were the vaults. The vault where the torso was discovered was 15ft x 20ft if IIRC.

That was much closer to the side of the building than I thought. That isn't a whole pile of rooms to navigate if one went in the bottom right-hand side. Six rooms. It's like straight, left, straight, left again and dump in the vault.

[Abby Normal]

This is the best I can do atm. The red recatangle at the bottom is where I estimate the torso was discovered based on all the evidence. The half moon markings around the perimeter were the vaults. The vault where the torso was discovered was 15ft x 20ft if IIRC.

Thanks for posting Jerry.
that is literally a maze.