What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[Batman]

The basement was a maze consisting of many vaults. The workmen admitted it would be extremely hard for someone unfamiliar with the layout to find their way into the vault where the body and leg was found. It just happened to be the one vault they kept their tools in at night. There were other easier areas to dump the body rather than trying to find the way into that particular vault.

Have you seen the map of the basement?

It measured 128 ft by 168 ft.

Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

"When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

It sounds very much like someone working there knew where to dump it, but at the same time I can't help but think it's a construction site with the foundations down and therefore anyone off the streets could figure a way in. Pretty sure homeless people would chance it for a night's kip.

[packers stem]

Hello Simon,

Can you please point to me a single forensic psychology related journal that has supported this position? I have heard over the years your position being repeated on here, but is there any academic support for it at all?

It's more about using common sense when presented with a scenario .
Look at your response to Jerry and ask yourself is it really likely that some homeless guy sleeping rough in the vaults just so happens to cut up a body of a refined lady and takes it 'home' with him or is it more likely that a gang were involved ?
Use the current situation with Turkey /Saudi for comparison .....
The autumn of 88 was riddled with these scenarios , a few of us accept these are unlikely to all be coincidence .Others are led by text books saying how things are meant to be and won't think outside of those lines .
If people keep on looking for 'alternative explanations' for everything they will ,of course , never ever spot any conspiracy or cover up .

[Fisherman]

And then you might ask yourself whether there is any significance in the choice of location of the interface between the two series: Pinchin Street, where Charles Lechmere had lived with his policeman stepfather.

Indeed. And that only becomes so much the more interesting when we look at it from the angle of the Lech versus Kos thread: Just why is it that these murders, regardless of which series we look at, must involve a number of pointers to Lechmere? Why employ his specific geography - if, that is, it was somebody else who did the killing. If it was not, then there is no need to ask any questions.

In the case at hand, all we can say is that there were innumerable other streets where the Pinchin street body could have been dumped and that had no connections to the carman.
But no, it just had to fit his history in one way or another.

If there were really two serial killers at large in these years, how did both of them come to provide murders that have a clear cut connection to Lechmere? The torso killer was doing just fine and keeping out of his way up until the Pinchin Street business - but then we just had to have that link offered.

Why is this? And keep in mind that the old argument "the area was so small" does not cut the mustard here - when we are dealing with an unidentified killer - as so many out here suggest - the area that unidentified killer could have chosen was absolutely vast.

Similarly, if somebody has another suspect than Lechmere, then how do we explain that the murders of the combined series involved so many of Lechmere´s landmark areas? Coincidence? The torso killer just happened to stumble on Pinchin Street? If he could have chosen any street, then Pinchin Street was just that - any street?
Sorry, but that is untrue. It WAS up until a suspect was identified who had many a tie to the street, but it all changed then.

[Batman]

It's more about using common sense when presented with a scenario .
Look at your response to Jerry and ask yourself is it really likely that some homeless guy sleeping rough in the vaults just so happens to cut up a body of a refined lady and takes it 'home' with him or is it more likely that a gang were involved ?
Use the current situation with Turkey /Saudi for comparison .....
The autumn of 88 was riddled with these scenarios , a few of us accept these are unlikely to all be coincidence .Others are led by text books saying how things are meant to be and won't think outside of those lines .
If people keep on looking for 'alternative explanations' for everything they will ,of course , never ever spot any conspiracy or cover up .

I don't have a problem with the idea of gangs being responsible for torsos, many of which have been turning up in the Thames, since there are records for the Thames... and still turn up today!

What I am addressing is Simon's statement about the C5 and if he has references for his no-JtR hypothesis in the academic literature for forensic psychology. It seems all the peer-review academic stuff I have read on JtR says serial killer, same hand.

[packers stem]

Indeed. And that only becomes so much the more interesting when we look at it from the angle of the Lech versus Kos thread: Just why is it that these murders, regardless of which series we look at, must involve a number of pointers to Lechmere? Why employ his specific geography - if, that is, it was somebody else who did the killing. If it was not, then there is no need to ask any questions.

In the case at hand, all we can say is that there were innumerable other streets where the Pinchin street body could have been dumped and that had no connections to the carman.
But no, it just had to fit his history in one way or another.

If there were really two serial killers at large in these years, how did both of them come to provide murders that have a clear cut connection to Lechmere? The torso killer was doing just fine and keeping out of his way up until the Pinchin Street business - but then we just had to have that link offered.

Why is this? And keep in mind that the old argument "the area was so small" does not cut the mustard here - when we are dealing with an unidentified killer - as so many out here suggest - the area that unidentified killer could have chosen was absolutely vast.

Similarly, if somebody has another suspect than Lechmere, then how do we explain that the murders of the combined series involved so many of Lechmere´s landmark areas? Coincidence? The torso killer just happened to stumble on Pinchin Street? If he could have chosen any street, then Pinchin Street was just that - any street?
Sorry, but that is untrue. It WAS up until a suspect was identified who had many a tie to the street, but it all changed then.

So on the same day he kills Chapman , he kills a rather refined lady , chops off her arm and dumps it in the Thames.
He then hides the rest of the torso for three weeks before at the same time as killing Stride and Eddowes , finds a building site , finds his way in , equipped with lamp and shovel ,carries torso and leg over gangplanks , through tunnels to the point in the vault where he wants to dump the torso ?

[Sam Flynn]

how do we explain that the murders of the combined series involved so many of Lechmere´s landmark areas?

They don't.

Bucks Row: definite link, no doubt. Then again, Cross is "linked" to Bucks Row only inasmuch as Robert Paul, PC Neil and who knows how many others might be. Furthermore, Robert Paul was as much "linked" to Hanbury Street as Cross was (see next point).

Hanbury Street: speculative link. Only works if (a) we know Cross went to work that day; (b) that his passing through coincided with the time of death; (c) we can eliminate all the other people, including Paul and the carmen seen by Davis, who used the same thoroughfare. The latter factor could be significant because, although not a main road, Hanbury Street was an important "feeder" into central Spitalfields, used by many people on a regular basis.

Berner Street: speculative link, based on Cross's mother living a few blocks away. In terms of timing and location, the Stride murder cannot in any way be connected to Cross's work patterns which, after all, is one of the main arguments against him.

Mitre Square: speculative link. Unlike Bucks Row or Hanbury Street, there is no concrete reason why Cross should have been dawdling in the area of Mitre Square around 1:30 AM.

Dorset Street: speculative link. No concrete reason why Cross should have been in Dorset Street or Commercial Street at any of the times suggested for Kelly's murder.

The torso killer just happened to stumble on Pinchin Street? If he could have chosen any street, then Pinchin Street was just that - any street?

Pinchin Street wasn't far from where Cross's mother lived - so what? Did Cross cut up the body in ma's house, and/or was ma involved in killing and dismembering the Pinchin Street victim? If Cross had killed/dismembered the body elsewhere, say in Bethnal Green, why lug it all the way to St George-in-the-East, ostensibly to $hit on his mother's doorstep?

Doesn't make any sense at all.

[Batman]

So on the same day he kills Chapman , he kills a rather refined lady , chops off her arm and dumps it in the Thames.
He then hides the rest of the torso for three weeks before at the same time as killing Stride and Eddowes , finds a building site , finds his way in , equipped with lamp and shovel ,carries torso and leg over gangplanks , through tunnels to the point in the vault where he wants to dump the torso ?

• The Visalia Ransacker
• The East Area Rapist
• The Original Night Stalker

a.k.a EARONS
a.k.a The Golden State Killer

Same person. A cop.

Here we have a link to law enforcement in this dump.

I think it could be well within the realms of possibility it's all related.

I am currently a fan of the hypothesis that JtR could be LE.

[Trevor Marriott]

They don't.

Bucks Row: definite link, no doubt. Then again, Cross is "linked" to Bucks Row only inasmuch as Robert Paul, PC Neil and who knows how many others might be. Furthermore, Robert Paul was as much "linked" to Hanbury Street as Cross was (see next point).

Hanbury Street: speculative link. Only works if (a) we know Cross went to work that day; (b) that his passing through coincided with the time of death; (c) we can eliminate all the other people, including Paul and the carmen seen by Davis, who used the same thoroughfare. The latter factor could be significant because, although not a main road, Hanbury Street was an important "feeder" into central Spitalfields, used by many people on a regular basis.

Berner Street: speculative link, based on Cross's mother living a few blocks away. In terms of timing and location, the Stride murder cannot in any way be connected to Cross's work patterns which, after all, is one of the main arguments against him.

Mitre Square: speculative link. Unlike Bucks Row or Hanbury Street, there is no concrete reason why Cross should have been dawdling in the area of Mitre Square around 1:30 AM.

Dorset Street: speculative link. No concrete reason why Cross should have been in Dorset Street or Commercial Street at any of the times suggested for Kelly's murder.

Pinchin Street wasn't far from where Cross's mother lived - so what? Did Cross cut up the body in ma's house, and/or was ma involved in killing and dismembering the Pinchin Street victim? If Cross had killed/dismembered the body elsewhere, say in Bethnal Green, why lug it all the way to St George-in-the-East, ostensibly to $hit on his mother's doorstep?

Doesn't make any sense at all.

Sam

I agree, much of Ripperology doesnt make sense ! but it seems here in numpty land the use of the two words "common sense" are taboo

Why would the killer of Stride, knowing that he had recently killed, and knowing that the police would be on high alert, continue to wander the streets still looking for another victim. If that were me I would want get out of the area, and off the streets asap, and not put myself in a situation where I might be stopped at any time by a police officer.

I am afraid that the suggestion of the same killer for both doesn't sit well with me, and there are the significant dissimilarities between the two murders.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

• The Visalia Ransacker
• The East Area Rapist
• The Original Night Stalker

a.k.a EARONS
a.k.a The Golden State Killer

Same person. A cop.

Here we have a link to law enforcement in this dump.

I think it could be well within the realms of possibility it's all related.

I am currently a fan of the hypothesis that JtR could be LE.

Would a policeman (particularly a low-ranking one) know the inner-layout of the unfinished building site?

[MrBarnett]

Indeed. And that only becomes so much the more interesting when we look at it from the angle of the Lech versus Kos thread: Just why is it that these murders, regardless of which series we look at, must involve a number of pointers to Lechmere? Why employ his specific geography - if, that is, it was somebody else who did the killing. If it was not, then there is no need to ask any questions.

In the case at hand, all we can say is that there were innumerable other streets where the Pinchin street body could have been dumped and that had no connections to the carman.
But no, it just had to fit his history in one way or another.

If there were really two serial killers at large in these years, how did both of them come to provide murders that have a clear cut connection to Lechmere? The torso killer was doing just fine and keeping out of his way up until the Pinchin Street business - but then we just had to have that link offered.

Why is this? And keep in mind that the old argument "the area was so small" does not cut the mustard here - when we are dealing with an unidentified killer - as so many out here suggest - the area that unidentified killer could have chosen was absolutely vast.

Similarly, if somebody has another suspect than Lechmere, then how do we explain that the murders of the combined series involved so many of Lechmere´s landmark areas? Coincidence? The torso killer just happened to stumble on Pinchin Street? If he could have chosen any street, then Pinchin Street was just that - any street?
Sorry, but that is untrue. It WAS up until a suspect was identified who had many a tie to the street, but it all changed then.

Fish,

I was recently having a discussion with Ed about whether CAL's childhood home, where he lived with his policeman stepfather, was one of the few remaining houses in Pinchin Street in 1888. I'm convinced it was, Ed isn't.

As you know, the street that had been below Pinchin Street (then Thomas Street) when CAL grew up there was Frederick Street. It was one of 4 streets in the area that went by the name of Tiger Bay on account of the ferocity of the prostitutes who operated there. That's undoubtedly where his views on such women were formed.

Interestingly, Henry Street was another Tiger Bay. It was later renamed Boyd Street and as Debra discovered was somewhere Pearly Poll claimed a connection to. The family of her vicious blind paramour, Thomas Fogarty, lived for many years in a court off Batty Street, one Street away from Berner Street.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

Would a policeman (particularly a low-ranking one) know the inner-layout of the unfinished building site?

No. But I tell you who might, Samuel Cowdry, Polly Nichols' erstwhile employer, who was Clerk of the Works to the Met.

[Harry D]

Why would the killer of Stride, knowing that he had recently killed, and knowing that the police would be on high alert, continue to wander the streets still looking for another victim. If that were me I would want get out of the area, and off the streets asap, and not put myself in a situation where I might be stopped at any time by a police officer.

I know, it's almost as if serial killers don't think rationally.

[Batman]

Would a policeman (particularly a low-ranking one) know the inner-layout of the unfinished building site?

I would assume higher-ranking ones working with the project would have, but not a lower-ranking one generally speaking I would think. However how about a crime event that went down there previously that caused a PC to go in. That would be interesting if there were any.

[MrBarnett]

I think it's unlikely that someone as down at heel as Smith was working for a gang. She was most likely targeted by them for sport. If they got a few coppers out of the encounter, that was a bonus.

[Harry D]

Furthermore, would everyone's favourite carman have known the layout of the Whitehall building site?