Double throat cuts

[Jon Guy]

The issue is that we do not have is actual words,

But they are his actual words, Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

Jon reading this again I think we need to be carefully how we interpret it.
If just accepted as it appears it could suggest one cut which encircled the neck and continued on to a second cut. That is a very difficulty feat to achieve.

I've been trying to find this quote, do you have the source, Steve?
And do you have an alternative idea of what could be being described?
If the cut does go all the way around the back of the neck, it would be hard to achieve without lifting the head off the ground - perhaps necessitating removal of any bonnet?

[Elamarna]

I have to agree, that's how it reads to me. A shallow spiral cut, like the thread of a bolt.

Yes Josh that is how it can be read. That is difficult to achieve is the point I am making.

However Phillips is reported as saying "incisions of the skin" and "they " suggesting two seperate cuts to the skin.


Still think in Nichols and Mackenzie the first cut is botched for what ever reason.
Hence why two.

Steve

[Elamarna]

But should we be disagreeing on statements like the one you just posted by Dr Phillips, Steve ?

Yes, there are lots of grey areas in Ripper world, but medical statements like this are pretty straight forward and should be embraced.

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

As Observer observed, the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other.

The issue is that we do not have is actual words, but far more important is the cut suggested by those words. I really do not think it is a realistic option.

Two cuts in the same gaping wound is fine. That is perfectly sensible as the spacing Phillips gives is on the bone not the surface.

It's just encircling the neck I am struggling with.
However I am not sure so am not about to make an issue of it.

Decapitation is I feel far more debatable, but that's a different thread.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

As Observer observed, the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other.

I have to agree, that's how it reads to me. A shallow spiral cut, like the thread of a bolt.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry Jon, getting sloppy. Yes it is.

Cheers Steve :-)

[Jon Guy]

I personally don't see any indication of attempted Decapitation in the Nichols case and am not convinced in the Chapman case. But that's what I love about this subject, how we can all have different ideas from the same basic sources. And so long as we agree to disagree on certain parts it's great.

But should we be disagreeing on statements like the one you just posted by Dr Phillips, Steve ?

Yes, there are lots of grey areas in Ripper world, but medical statements like this are pretty straight forward and should be embraced.

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

As Observer observed, the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other.

[Elamarna]

In Chapman's case the the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other. Wickerman submitted a drawing sometime back to demonstrate this. Doctor Philips observed that an attempt had been made to separate the vertebrae in the neck, raising the possibility that an attempt had been made to decapitate Chapman. I am of the opinion that the killer attempted the same procedure in the Nichols murder.

One continuous cut?
Is that completely round the neck twice almost or two cuts in the same outer cut so to speak.if the former I have very serve doubts about the practicality of that. But am open to persuasion.

I personally don't see any indication of attempted Decapitation in the Nichols case and am not convinced in the Chapman case. But that's what I love about this subject, how we can all have different ideas from the same basic sources. And so long as we agree to disagree on certain parts it's great.

Cheers

Steve

[Elamarna]

Thanks Steve
Is this Phillips on Chapman ?

Sorry Jon, getting sloppy. Yes it is.


Steve

[Observer]

In Chapman's case the the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other. Wickerman submitted a drawing sometime back to demonstrate this. Doctor Philips observed that an attempt had been made to separate the vertebrae in the neck, raising the possibility that an attempt had been made to decapitate Chapman. I am of the opinion that the killer attempted the same procedure in the Nichols murder.

[Jon Guy]

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

Jon reading this again I think we need to be carefully how we interpret it.
If just accepted as it appears it could suggest one cut which encircled the neck and continued on to a second cut. That is a very difficulty feat to achieve.

Still searching for that source.

Steve

Thanks Steve
Is this Phillips on Chapman ?

[Elamarna]

Or maybe the killer just enjoyed it?

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

Jon reading this again I think we need to be carefully how we interpret it.
If just accepted as it appears it could suggest one cut which encircled the neck and continued on to a second cut. That is a very difficulty feat to achieve.

Still searching for that source.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

I am coming to conclusion that the double cuts were due to failure of an initial cut to achieve all it's objectives. However it's far from clear.

Or maybe the killer just enjoyed it?

[Elamarna]

Thanks Steve. I think I`ve read that somewhere too, but if I recall correctly it was by a civilian witness and not a medico.

All I really know about the Chapman throat cut is what Phillips says, which is pretty straightforward:

He (Phillips) noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck

Unfortunately, theories have been built on the misunderstanding of the nicked vertebrae detail. With it being used incorrectly to single out the Nichols and Chapman murders as the two only having the double throat cut, and hence the same killer.

There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch

Hi Jon

Agree entirely there.

The double cut to Nichols is nothing like those to Chapman in that only one of the Nichols cuts is long.

I have to say not looked at Chapman much recently and your recollection on civilian witness may be right. Need to find the actual quote before it can be judged.

I am coming to conclusion that the double cuts were due to failure of an initial cut to achieve all it's objectives. However it's far from clear.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon

I will need to go and search. It something read ages back. Along the lines of the head only just hanging on.
Interesting how we all read same things and get different pictures.

See if I can find it later.

Steve

Thanks Steve. I think I`ve read that somewhere too, but if I recall correctly it was by a civilian witness and not a medico.

All I really know about the Chapman throat cut is what Phillips says, which is pretty straightforward:

He (Phillips) noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck

Unfortunately, theories have been built on the misunderstanding of the nicked vertebrae detail. With it being used incorrectly to single out the Nichols and Chapman murders as the two only having the double throat cut, and hence the same killer.

There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch