Double throat cuts

[Elamarna]

The doctors stated that there was no apparent reason for McKenzie not shouting out when her throat was cut other than being in shock.
So, there`s a very good chance she was struggling or moved her head when the killer cut her throat

Agreed.

Steve

[Elamarna]

But they are his actual words, Steve

Jon with all due respect they are the words taken down by a reporter, so there may be words missing or others changed from what he really said..
However the majority is probably accurate, maybe all.

I don't think the cut as it reads is realistic. May well be wrong. End of the day in the scheme of things it is a minor matter.

There were two cuts to the spine indication two seperate cuts. We all agree on that I hope.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

Still think in Nichols and Mackenzie the first cut is botched for what ever reason.
Hence why two.

The doctors stated that there was no apparent reason for McKenzie not shouting out when her throat was cut other than being in shock.
So, there`s a very good chance she was struggling or moved her head when the killer cut her throat

[Jon Guy]

You beat me to it, JR
That`s exactly as I see it.

[Jon Guy]

However Phillips is reported as saying "incisions of the skin" and "they " suggesting two seperate cuts to the skin.

Incisions because the killer has basically sawed his way around her neck, hence Phillips describing the incisions as jagged.

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes Josh that is how it can be read. That is difficult to achieve is the point I am making.

However Phillips is reported as saying "incisions of the skin" and "they " suggesting two seperate cuts to the skin.


Still think in Nichols and Mackenzie the first cut is botched for what ever reason.
Hence why two.

Steve

I took his reference to incisions to mean the individiual knife cuts which made the wound seem jagged. As if the knife had been used in a sawing motion, rather than a long sweep. You may have a point though,

[Jon Guy]

The issue is that we do not have is actual words,

But they are his actual words, Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

Jon reading this again I think we need to be carefully how we interpret it.
If just accepted as it appears it could suggest one cut which encircled the neck and continued on to a second cut. That is a very difficulty feat to achieve.

I've been trying to find this quote, do you have the source, Steve?
And do you have an alternative idea of what could be being described?
If the cut does go all the way around the back of the neck, it would be hard to achieve without lifting the head off the ground - perhaps necessitating removal of any bonnet?

[Elamarna]

I have to agree, that's how it reads to me. A shallow spiral cut, like the thread of a bolt.

Yes Josh that is how it can be read. That is difficult to achieve is the point I am making.

However Phillips is reported as saying "incisions of the skin" and "they " suggesting two seperate cuts to the skin.


Still think in Nichols and Mackenzie the first cut is botched for what ever reason.
Hence why two.

Steve

[Elamarna]

But should we be disagreeing on statements like the one you just posted by Dr Phillips, Steve ?

Yes, there are lots of grey areas in Ripper world, but medical statements like this are pretty straight forward and should be embraced.

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

As Observer observed, the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other.

The issue is that we do not have is actual words, but far more important is the cut suggested by those words. I really do not think it is a realistic option.

Two cuts in the same gaping wound is fine. That is perfectly sensible as the spacing Phillips gives is on the bone not the surface.

It's just encircling the neck I am struggling with.
However I am not sure so am not about to make an issue of it.

Decapitation is I feel far more debatable, but that's a different thread.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

As Observer observed, the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other.

I have to agree, that's how it reads to me. A shallow spiral cut, like the thread of a bolt.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry Jon, getting sloppy. Yes it is.

Cheers Steve :-)

[Jon Guy]

I personally don't see any indication of attempted Decapitation in the Nichols case and am not convinced in the Chapman case. But that's what I love about this subject, how we can all have different ideas from the same basic sources. And so long as we agree to disagree on certain parts it's great.

But should we be disagreeing on statements like the one you just posted by Dr Phillips, Steve ?

Yes, there are lots of grey areas in Ripper world, but medical statements like this are pretty straight forward and should be embraced.

"The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. "

As Observer observed, the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other.

[Elamarna]

In Chapman's case the the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other. Wickerman submitted a drawing sometime back to demonstrate this. Doctor Philips observed that an attempt had been made to separate the vertebrae in the neck, raising the possibility that an attempt had been made to decapitate Chapman. I am of the opinion that the killer attempted the same procedure in the Nichols murder.

One continuous cut?
Is that completely round the neck twice almost or two cuts in the same outer cut so to speak.if the former I have very serve doubts about the practicality of that. But am open to persuasion.

I personally don't see any indication of attempted Decapitation in the Nichols case and am not convinced in the Chapman case. But that's what I love about this subject, how we can all have different ideas from the same basic sources. And so long as we agree to disagree on certain parts it's great.

Cheers

Steve

[Elamarna]

Thanks Steve
Is this Phillips on Chapman ?

Sorry Jon, getting sloppy. Yes it is.


Steve