Double throat cuts

[Elamarna]

Steve,

I could easily say that the cuts you speak about were "a failure". But I donīt like thinking that way so I do not say it.

I prefer data.

Cheers, Pierre

While i agree. The orginal question was for suggestions why?
Not sure what reliable data we are likely to have on if two or more cuts are made because of failure of the first, confessions of killers perhaps?
I seriously doubt there is any meaniful data from the 19th century on such.
Paul's data may give a more modern perspective.

I think it really is just speculation on possible reasons. None of which I fear can be supported by data.

Steve

[kjab3112]

Thanks Paul!

But I see now that there is just a sample of 32 homicidal injurys. That sample is too small to generalize from (statistically).

Pierre

This though is a massive sample of medicolegal autopsies, yet throat cut homicide is incredibly rare. There are other series which compare suicidal (rare), accidental (very rare) and homicidal, neck sharp wounds. The deeper wounds are near inevitably homicidal, but still a mere fraction of the total. Unfortunately I can only access the abstracts and a summary on forensicmed.

One needs to remember the sternocleidomastoid muscles are a couple of cm thick and although the larynx is fairly superficial, the carotid artery and jugular vein are deep to the muscle in a normal neck position

Paul

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre
No idea and doubt there is much data on it.

It's just an idea based on Mackenzie where one of the cuts appears to be a failure and Nichols where the smaller of the two cuts could be similar. No data to support just a suggestion I made.

Steve

Steve,

I could easily say that the cuts you speak about were "a failure". But I donīt like thinking that way so I do not say it.

I prefer data.

Cheers, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Seemingly "botched" cuts - how common where they in cases like this (throat cut, murder, Victorian times)?

Pierre

Hi Pierre
No idea and doubt there is much data on it.

It's just an idea based on Mackenzie where one of the cuts appears to be a failure and Nichols where the smaller of the two cuts could be similar. No data to support just a suggestion I made.

Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre

Here's a link to a nine year Indian series of all medicolegal autopsies which I think demonstrates:

A. How rare throat cut murder is
B. How it is uncommon for all deep structures to be involved

NB the Ripper murders would cut the larynx below the tracheal cartilage

http://www.ejmanager.com/mnstemps/115/115-1425267294.pdf

Paul

Thanks Paul!

But I see now that there is just a sample of 32 homicidal injurys. That sample is too small to generalize from (statistically).

Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;421842]

Not always. To cut all the vessels one does not need to use enough force to cut into the bone.

Steve

OK, I thought perhaps you spoke about force generally. I see what you mean.

Pierre

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;421822]

Michael wrote:



Steve, you said:



Is that not always an observation in throat cuts?

Not always. To cut all the vessels one does not need to use enough force to cut into the bone.

Steve

[kjab3112]

Before this terrible thread turns into Fishermanīs Torso Thread and before establishing facts on no knowledge at all about two cuts we need research on the whole issue. I have never been particularly interested in the dimension of the signature looking at the cuts and wounds, since I do not understand them much. I am no physician.

But I can see that a lot in this thread already must be speculation.

So there are questions that need to be answered, for example:

Was historical murders where there were throat cutting with two cuts common or unusual?

The types of cuts described in the sources - are these types of cuts to be found in many other newspaper sources describing throat cuts in murders?

Are their other types of cuts in descriptions over some relevant time?

If so, how do these descriptions differ?

And what knowledge can be gained from them?

So, what one must do is find a set of sources, analyze them and answer these questions.

The most suitable researcher for such a task, not naming anyone, is someone with some medical knowledge.

Pierre

Pierre

Here's a link to a nine year Indian series of all medicolegal autopsies which I think demonstrates:

A. How rare throat cut murder is
B. How it is uncommon for all deep structures to be involved

NB the Ripper murders would cut the larynx below the tracheal cartilage

http://www.ejmanager.com/mnstemps/115/115-1425267294.pdf

Paul

[Pierre]

The protruding tongues certainly imply potential strangulation, but not definite. Steve (Elmarna) previously asked whether the decapitation could have hidden the cuts, the couple I've looked at would again be a possibility (although until each ripper/ripper-type cut and each torso decapitation is assessed I'm not willing to go further, sorry).

I do remember a previous discussion about the use of a garrotte which I suggest could potentially occlude the carotid arteries to render the victim unconscious as the first element of the killers attack.

Regards

Paul

I see. Potential strangulation. Thank you, Paul.

Pierre

[Fisherman]

Deleted.

[Pierre]

If you follow the Mylett case, where the victim was thought to have been strangled by use of a cord. Dr. Brownfield offered a reason for the throats being cut in previous cases.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

".....if the other victims had been first strangled would there not be postmortem indications?" - "If he cut the throat along the line of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation." "

Hi Wickerman,

I donīt know what to make of this (excerpt from the article in your reference):

"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that


THE TONGUE PROTRUDED
between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation."

Is this something I can belive in?

Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Paul.

Good idea on the Chapman case. Not something I had considered.

Or course such cannot be the case with Nichols, so botched first cut still looks a possibility.

In which case the double cuts while not random as such, may not be a significant link between some victims as some researchers have suggested.

Steve

Seemingly "botched" cuts - how common where they in cases like this (throat cut, murder, Victorian times)?

Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;421534]

Michael wrote:

The nicks to the spine, from my vantage point, could easily have been the result of an overly aggressive approach to ensure swift bleed out.

Steve, you said:

Certainly carried out with force.

Is that not always an observation in throat cuts?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;421533]

My belief is that the killer was behind her when her throat was cut. He plunged the knife deep into the throat front and centre, and then drew the knife across. The knife was in deep enough to almost sever the head as was described.

How often is that technique used in murders, Trevor?

How common is this?

The angle of the facial wounds is also suggestive of that, and perhaps these injuries occurred when she was struggling to avoid having her throat cut.

How often is that evident in throat cuts in murders?

Do not all victims "struggle" a bit when the throat is cut?

Is there any data for it?

It is noticeable that there were no other similar facial wounds to any of the other victims which you might expect to find if they were all killed by the same hand.

This was not the question in the thread. The thread is discussing throat cuts - not facial wounds, abdominal wounds, torso killings. Just reminding you of this.

Dr Biggs has stated that there is not always arterial spray in these circumstances.

Biggs in this thread too?

The exception being Kelly but her face was mutilated in a different way by what would appear to have been a blunt object.

Far away from the question.

Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Steve

There could be a tentative first cut on Eddowes:
"A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear. "

Hi Jon,

In murders where there were throat cuts: how common were such cuts?

Were all / some of these cuts "tentative"?

What does a suggestion about a cut being "tentative" say about the Whitechapel killer - if anything at all?

Pierre