Throat cutting in Victorian London.....

[Trevor Marriott]

What he actually said, in an extremely well-balanced summary, was this:

"There had been no skilful mutilation as in the case of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case if Mitre Square-possibly the work of an imitator; but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection, which, unfortunately for the peace of the inhabitants and trade of the neighbourhood, had hitherto been only too successful."

It's also interesting that you refer to Dr Phillips, as he seemed to believe that even Rose Mylett was a Ripper victim: see http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

Of course we dont know who the killer was, he was never caught so we dont know if he got blood on him or not

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Station Cat]

Victorian prisons were no holiday camp.You lost your identity, became a number. Penal servitude was hard labour, which could mean on the treadmill, hours everyday, breaking rocks, monotonous food. Prisoners were isolated from each other, not allowed to frantinise. Cells were on average 13 by 7 feet, or less in convict prisons and had spy holes. They were given old repaired boots to wear which were very heavy.
So the sentences may have been 5 or 7 years but probably felt a lot longer. In the earier Victorian period, a sentence of seven years would have meant transportation.
I wonder how many 'self inficted' throat cuttings were murder?
Liz Stride's killing is only a domestic if she knew her killer, but I cant see a 'date' randomly slitting her throat for no reason, no row, no drunkeness.

Miss Marple

Fair point. Just out of interest then what was the longest sentence that someone could expect to get?

[The Station Cat]

Surely the point we are considering is whether throat-cutting alone is sufficient reason to place Stride in the C5.

Bearing in mind that her murder was geographically slightly out of kilter with the the others and the timing was very much so, is the fact that her throat was cut sufficiently distinctive? Dismissing other throat-cutting incidents because they were 'domestics' only works if you are sure that Stride's wasn't.

As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?

This is my concern with including her. But having said that what are the odds of two women both being murdered in the same district on the same night. Which takes me back to my original question. How common was throat cutting in Victorian Whitechapel?

Another issue is who where the possible "two" men she was seen with minutes before. Who was the man that threw her to the floor, was this "Jack" or someone else if someone else what are the odds of her getting into to altercations so soon after each other, not impossible but unlikely? Then there's the nuts. Years of debate has concluded that she is one of the 5............. I guess like pretty much most of the case, I guess we'll never know......

Such a shame that some much of the documentation relating to the case has been lost over time.

[John G]

Who's arguing that?

The point is that, according to Baxter, the wounds were such that they could have been self-inflicted. Did he say ' These wounds were inflicted by a determined and practiced killer, they are of a severity that I have only seen in the recent series of murders'?

No, he said, 'Both Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell have seen self-inflicted wounds more extensive and severe, but those have not usually involved the carotid artery'

What he actually said, in an extremely well-balanced summary, was this:

"There had been no skilful mutilation as in the case of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case if Mitre Square-possibly the work of an imitator; but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection, which, unfortunately for the peace of the inhabitants and trade of the neighbourhood, had hitherto been only too successful."

It's also interesting that you refer to Dr Phillips, as he seemed to believe that even Rose Mylett was a Ripper victim: see http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

[curious4]

Perhaps she hadn't practised enough. Forgot the knife.

C4

[Joshua Rogan]

The arguments get sillier. The fact is no knife was found anywhere near Liz Stride. Also can you seriously believe Liz Stride gets out a packet of cachous , and then thinks 'no think I'll cut my throat instead' ? Come on.

Well, the cachous were wrapped in paper, and everyone knows how nasty paper-cuts can be...

[MrBarnett]

The arguments get sillier. The fact is no knife was found anywhere near Liz Stride. Also can you seriously believe Liz Stride gets out a packet of cachous , and then thinks 'no think I'll cut my throat instead' ? Come on.

Who's arguing that?

The point is that, according to Baxter, the wounds were such that they could have been self-inflicted. Did he say ' These wounds were inflicted by a determined and practiced killer, they are of a severity that I have only seen in the recent series of murders'?

No, he said, 'Both Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell have seen self-inflicted wounds more extensive and severe, but those have not usually involved the carotid artery'

[Observer]

The arguments get sillier. The fact is no knife was found anywhere near Liz Stride. Also can you seriously believe Liz Stride gets out a packet of cachous , and then thinks 'no think I'll cut my throat instead' ? Come on.

[MrBarnett]

"As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?"

You might want to rephrase that Mr B.

You're not really suggesting that Liz cut her own throat, are you?

Best wishes
C4

In Baxter's own words:

Had some sharp instrument been found near the right hand of the deceased this case might have had very much the appearance of a determined suicide.

[curious4]

"As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?"

You might want to rephrase that Mr B.

You're not really suggesting that Liz cut her own throat, are you?

Best wishes
C4

[miss marple]

Victorian prisons were no holiday camp.You lost your identity, became a number. Penal servitude was hard labour, which could mean on the treadmill, hours everyday, breaking rocks, monotonous food. Prisoners were isolated from each other, not allowed to frantinise. Cells were on average 13 by 7 feet, or less in convict prisons and had spy holes. They were given old repaired boots to wear which were very heavy.
So the sentences may have been 5 or 7 years but probably felt a lot longer. In the earier Victorian period, a sentence of seven years would have meant transportation.
I wonder how many 'self inficted' throat cuttings were murder?
Liz Stride's killing is only a domestic if she knew her killer, but I cant see a 'date' randomly slitting her throat for no reason, no row, no drunkeness.

Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

Thought I would take a closer look at three of the throat cuttings refered to in East London. All very different.

Lucretia Pembroke, a 15 year old girl was working as a waitress in a Bermondsy coffee shop at Spa rd, was attacked by a regular customer to whom she had just served tea. William Atkins 21 known as 'silly billy' had mental health issues. He suddenly locked the front door, crept behind her, seized her by back of the neck cut her throat with a pocket knife, extending from a point just clear of the windpipe, to the right ear, slicing off the lobe. William Atkins was given 7 years penal servitude, in spite of his mental health issues.

Rosa Payne was a limehouse prostitute, who had been living for three weeks with a ship's steward, John Henry Guhee,37 a native of New Delhi. They had been drinking and quarrelling about money. £6. He stated she had called him names. He beat her with a poker then slashed her throat with a razor from the right ear passing diagonally down to the left ear. He was described in court as an intelligent looking man. 5 years penal servitude.

Caroline Butler was attacked by her violent drunken son William Butler 27 at home 2 Kennington St Rotherhide. He cut her throat with a razor. On being arrested said 'He would rather be dead than alive' 5 years penal servitude.

These domestic dramas have nothing in common with the ripper killings, which were unique at the time.

Miss Marple

Surely the point we are considering is whether throat-cutting alone is sufficient reason to place Stride in the C5.

Bearing in mind that her murder was geographically slightly out of kilter with the the others and the timing was very much so, is the fact that her throat was cut sufficiently distinctive? Dismissing other throat-cutting incidents because they were 'domestics' only works if you are sure that Stride's wasn't.

As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?

[The Station Cat]

Thought I would take a closer look at three of the throat cuttings refered to in East London. All very different.

Lucretia Pembroke, a 15 year old girl was working as a waitress in a Bermondsy coffee shop at Spa rd, was attacked by a regular customer to whom she had just served tea. William Atkins 21 known as 'silly billy' had mental health issues. He suddenly locked the front door, crept behind her, seized her by back of the neck cut her throat with a pocket knife, extending from a point just clear of the windpipe, to the right ear, slicing off the lobe. William Atkins was given 7 years penal servitude, in spite of his mental health issues.

Rosa Payne was a limehouse prostitute, who had been living for three weeks with a ship's steward, John Henry Guhee,37 a native of New Delhi. They had been drinking and quarrelling about money. £6. He stated she had called him names. He beat her with a poker then slashed her throat with a razor from the right ear passing diagonally down to the left ear. He was described in court as an intelligent looking man. 5 years penal servitude.

Caroline Butler was attacked by her violent drunken son William Butler 27 at home 2 Kennington St Rotherhide. He cut her throat with a razor. On being arrested said 'He would rather be dead than alive' 5 years penal servitude.

These domestic dramas have nothing in common with the ripper killings, which were unique at the time.

Miss Marple

Going off topic if I may, but remaining on the same subject..... how lenient the sentences for these three crimes are. I had always assumed that "justice" was a lot harsher in Victorian England?

[miss marple]

Thought I would take a closer look at three of the throat cuttings refered to in East London. All very different.

Lucretia Pembroke, a 15 year old girl was working as a waitress in a Bermondsy coffee shop at Spa rd, was attacked by a regular customer to whom she had just served tea. William Atkins 21 known as 'silly billy' had mental health issues. He suddenly locked the front door, crept behind her, seized her by back of the neck cut her throat with a pocket knife, extending from a point just clear of the windpipe, to the right ear, slicing off the lobe. William Atkins was given 7 years penal servitude, in spite of his mental health issues.

Rosa Payne was a limehouse prostitute, who had been living for three weeks with a ship's steward, John Henry Guhee,37 a native of New Delhi. They had been drinking and quarrelling about money. £6. He stated she had called him names. He beat her with a poker then slashed her throat with a razor from the right ear passing diagonally down to the left ear. He was described in court as an intelligent looking man. 5 years penal servitude.

Caroline Butler was attacked by her violent drunken son William Butler 27 at home 2 Kennington St Rotherhide. He cut her throat with a razor. On being arrested said 'He would rather be dead than alive' 5 years penal servitude.

These domestic dramas have nothing in common with the ripper killings, which were unique at the time.

Miss Marple

[John G]

Throat cutting had been the main method of killing for many years prior to 1888. So just because all the prostitutes had their throats cut doesn't necessarily point to the same killer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Yes, I would tend to agree with that-as demonstrated by the latter murders of McKenzie and Coles, for instance-which is why other factors need to be taken into consideration, some of which were summarized by Coroner Baxter at the Stride inquest.