Throat cutting in Victorian London.....

[Mayerling]

But was throat cutting short of murder common? If it was, there must have been a large number of incredibly fortunate individuals, because in, say, the whole of 1887 there were only 11 female adults murdered by way of knife, which of course wouldn't just include throat cutting, in the whole country.

Moreover, the vast majority of murders would no doubt be domestic affairs with an obvious suspect, as illustrated by Rosella's post on unsolved murders. And Stride certainly doesn't fall within that category.

It's also worth pointing out that Stride was murdered with clinical efficiency, i.e. by having her carotid artery cut and given no opportunity to cry out. And to my mind, that's indicative of an experienced offender who knew exactly what they were doing.

Any form of murder may fall short - in which case you have an attempted murder. Just because one cuts at a throat (even slices it) does not mean the victim has been fatally or mortally wounded.

In the year 1726 the "Thieftaker General" Jonathan Wild, who actually was the model for "Professor Moriarty" in part (he's mentioned in Doyle's novel, "The Valley of Fear") was attacked by one of his gang, "Blueskin" Blake, who was a close friend of Jack Sheppard. Wild had set up Sheppard to be captured and hanged, but Sheppard built up a legend of escaping repeatedly from Newgate Prison. In the end though he was recaptured a last time and eventually hanged. Blueskin, realizing Wild's involvement in all this, attacked Wild and seriously injured (but did not kill Wild) by cutting his throat. Blueskin was arrested, tried, convicted, and hanged, but revealed Wild's illegal activities - which eventually led to the fall of the "Thieftaker General" and his eventual execution.

Granted it is 160 years before Whitechapel, but it does illustrate an attempt at cutting a throat may not result in a person being actually killed.

Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

And let's not forget The Kurgan, from Highlander...

[Shaggyrand]

And let's not forget The Kurgan, from Highlander...

Too bad The Kurgan was in Zanzibar fighting in the Abushiri Revolt in 1888. Just saying... It's as good as the Lewis Carroll theory otherwise.

[Rosella]

Getting back to Jack though, who presumably wasn't in Zanzibar or the Highlands or on a movie set during his career---was Jack practising his skills with a knife on humans before Polly, (or Martha Tabram)? As I'm not a fan of Jack the Torso Killer it doesn't appear so to me.

[John Wheat]

Getting back to Jack though, who presumably wasn't in Zanzibar or the Highlands or on a movie set during his career---was Jack practising his skills with a knife on humans before Polly, (or Martha Tabram)? As I'm not a fan of Jack the Torso Killer it doesn't appear so to me.

Quite possibly small animals though.

[Trevor Marriott]

But was throat cutting short of murder common? If it was, there must have been a large number of incredibly fortunate individuals, because in, say, the whole of 1887 there were only 11 female adults murdered by way of knife, which of course wouldn't just include throat cutting, in the whole country.

Moreover, the vast majority of murders would no doubt be domestic affairs with an obvious suspect, as illustrated by Rosella's post on unsolved murders. And Stride certainly doesn't fall within that category.

It's also worth pointing out that Stride was murdered with clinical efficiency, i.e. by having her carotid artery cut and given no opportunity to cry out. And to my mind, that's indicative of an experienced offender who knew exactly what they were doing.

Throat cutting had been the main method of killing for many years prior to 1888. So just because all the prostitutes had their throats cut doesn't necessarily point to the same killer.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Throat cutting had been the main method of killing for many years prior to 1888. So just because all the prostitutes had their throats cut doesn't necessarily point to the same killer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Yes, I would tend to agree with that-as demonstrated by the latter murders of McKenzie and Coles, for instance-which is why other factors need to be taken into consideration, some of which were summarized by Coroner Baxter at the Stride inquest.

[miss marple]

Thought I would take a closer look at three of the throat cuttings refered to in East London. All very different.

Lucretia Pembroke, a 15 year old girl was working as a waitress in a Bermondsy coffee shop at Spa rd, was attacked by a regular customer to whom she had just served tea. William Atkins 21 known as 'silly billy' had mental health issues. He suddenly locked the front door, crept behind her, seized her by back of the neck cut her throat with a pocket knife, extending from a point just clear of the windpipe, to the right ear, slicing off the lobe. William Atkins was given 7 years penal servitude, in spite of his mental health issues.

Rosa Payne was a limehouse prostitute, who had been living for three weeks with a ship's steward, John Henry Guhee,37 a native of New Delhi. They had been drinking and quarrelling about money. £6. He stated she had called him names. He beat her with a poker then slashed her throat with a razor from the right ear passing diagonally down to the left ear. He was described in court as an intelligent looking man. 5 years penal servitude.

Caroline Butler was attacked by her violent drunken son William Butler 27 at home 2 Kennington St Rotherhide. He cut her throat with a razor. On being arrested said 'He would rather be dead than alive' 5 years penal servitude.

These domestic dramas have nothing in common with the ripper killings, which were unique at the time.

Miss Marple

[The Station Cat]

Thought I would take a closer look at three of the throat cuttings refered to in East London. All very different.

Lucretia Pembroke, a 15 year old girl was working as a waitress in a Bermondsy coffee shop at Spa rd, was attacked by a regular customer to whom she had just served tea. William Atkins 21 known as 'silly billy' had mental health issues. He suddenly locked the front door, crept behind her, seized her by back of the neck cut her throat with a pocket knife, extending from a point just clear of the windpipe, to the right ear, slicing off the lobe. William Atkins was given 7 years penal servitude, in spite of his mental health issues.

Rosa Payne was a limehouse prostitute, who had been living for three weeks with a ship's steward, John Henry Guhee,37 a native of New Delhi. They had been drinking and quarrelling about money. £6. He stated she had called him names. He beat her with a poker then slashed her throat with a razor from the right ear passing diagonally down to the left ear. He was described in court as an intelligent looking man. 5 years penal servitude.

Caroline Butler was attacked by her violent drunken son William Butler 27 at home 2 Kennington St Rotherhide. He cut her throat with a razor. On being arrested said 'He would rather be dead than alive' 5 years penal servitude.

These domestic dramas have nothing in common with the ripper killings, which were unique at the time.

Miss Marple

Going off topic if I may, but remaining on the same subject..... how lenient the sentences for these three crimes are. I had always assumed that "justice" was a lot harsher in Victorian England?

[MrBarnett]

Thought I would take a closer look at three of the throat cuttings refered to in East London. All very different.

Lucretia Pembroke, a 15 year old girl was working as a waitress in a Bermondsy coffee shop at Spa rd, was attacked by a regular customer to whom she had just served tea. William Atkins 21 known as 'silly billy' had mental health issues. He suddenly locked the front door, crept behind her, seized her by back of the neck cut her throat with a pocket knife, extending from a point just clear of the windpipe, to the right ear, slicing off the lobe. William Atkins was given 7 years penal servitude, in spite of his mental health issues.

Rosa Payne was a limehouse prostitute, who had been living for three weeks with a ship's steward, John Henry Guhee,37 a native of New Delhi. They had been drinking and quarrelling about money. £6. He stated she had called him names. He beat her with a poker then slashed her throat with a razor from the right ear passing diagonally down to the left ear. He was described in court as an intelligent looking man. 5 years penal servitude.

Caroline Butler was attacked by her violent drunken son William Butler 27 at home 2 Kennington St Rotherhide. He cut her throat with a razor. On being arrested said 'He would rather be dead than alive' 5 years penal servitude.

These domestic dramas have nothing in common with the ripper killings, which were unique at the time.

Miss Marple

Surely the point we are considering is whether throat-cutting alone is sufficient reason to place Stride in the C5.

Bearing in mind that her murder was geographically slightly out of kilter with the the others and the timing was very much so, is the fact that her throat was cut sufficiently distinctive? Dismissing other throat-cutting incidents because they were 'domestics' only works if you are sure that Stride's wasn't.

As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?

[miss marple]

Victorian prisons were no holiday camp.You lost your identity, became a number. Penal servitude was hard labour, which could mean on the treadmill, hours everyday, breaking rocks, monotonous food. Prisoners were isolated from each other, not allowed to frantinise. Cells were on average 13 by 7 feet, or less in convict prisons and had spy holes. They were given old repaired boots to wear which were very heavy.
So the sentences may have been 5 or 7 years but probably felt a lot longer. In the earier Victorian period, a sentence of seven years would have meant transportation.
I wonder how many 'self inficted' throat cuttings were murder?
Liz Stride's killing is only a domestic if she knew her killer, but I cant see a 'date' randomly slitting her throat for no reason, no row, no drunkeness.

Miss Marple

[curious4]

"As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?"

You might want to rephrase that Mr B.

You're not really suggesting that Liz cut her own throat, are you?

Best wishes
C4

[MrBarnett]

"As for Baxter's summing up, he was of the opinion that the injuries to Stride's throat were not inconsistent with their being self-inflicted. How many of the suicides he had seen who had cut their own throats would have perfected their technique by experience?"

You might want to rephrase that Mr B.

You're not really suggesting that Liz cut her own throat, are you?

Best wishes
C4

In Baxter's own words:

Had some sharp instrument been found near the right hand of the deceased this case might have had very much the appearance of a determined suicide.

[Observer]

The arguments get sillier. The fact is no knife was found anywhere near Liz Stride. Also can you seriously believe Liz Stride gets out a packet of cachous , and then thinks 'no think I'll cut my throat instead' ? Come on.

[MrBarnett]

The arguments get sillier. The fact is no knife was found anywhere near Liz Stride. Also can you seriously believe Liz Stride gets out a packet of cachous , and then thinks 'no think I'll cut my throat instead' ? Come on.

Who's arguing that?

The point is that, according to Baxter, the wounds were such that they could have been self-inflicted. Did he say ' These wounds were inflicted by a determined and practiced killer, they are of a severity that I have only seen in the recent series of murders'?

No, he said, 'Both Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell have seen self-inflicted wounds more extensive and severe, but those have not usually involved the carotid artery'