Throat cutting in Victorian London.....

[MrBarnett]

Murder was clearly very rare, although I'm sure violent assault wasn't. In any event, this is comparing apples with pears.

Why? Any one of these attacks could have resulted in the death of the victim and therefore an increased possibility that the perpetrator escaped detection.

If you take Stride out of the C5 and drop her in amongst this lot, does she stand out in some way?

[The Station Cat]

May I just say at this conjecture, many thanks to everyone who has replied to my thread. You have all certainly given me something to think about and your replies definitely make very interesting reading!! !!

[The Station Cat]

In 1888 London police dealt with 28 cases of murder, 94 of manslaughter. Roughly half were female victims. There were 14 unsolved murders in 1888. Besides the C-5 and Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Rose Mylett and the unknown torso at Scotland Yard,there were

Emma Wakefield -Botched abortion.
Elizabeth Smith -possible drowning after being left drunk.
Elizabeth Gorman -Botched abortion.
Annie Mary French-Chloroform poisoning (lover suspected)
Lucy Clark - death by blunt instrument in course of robbery.

Jan Bondeson in Rivals of the Ripper investigates many cases of females being murdered. In seven between 1872 and 1888 there are five in which the women are bludgeoned to death with a heavy instrument, in one a strangulation also occurs. In another the throat is also cut. In one no cause of death could be found due to lapse of time between death and the body being discovered and one woman, a prostitute, dies from a cut throat by knife or razor.

Many thanks Rosella, I'll have to read Rival of the Ripper!.

[The Station Cat]

Oh, my God! I am speechless. I actually convinced someone on these boards with my argument. Maybe I should retire now.

c.d.

Consider your work here done lol.

[The Station Cat]

Or examples where the victim survived?

I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive (it excludes Annie Farmer, for instance):


Lucy Clarke, Marylebone - February, 1888.

Lucretia Pembroke, Bermondsey - December, 1888.

Amy Howarth, Islington - August, 1888. (Attempted)

Jane Haberfield, Kennington - September, 1888.

Sarah Brett, Peckham - October, 1888.

Rose Payne, Limehouse - January, 1889.

Caroline Butler, Rotherhithe - January, 1889.

Very interesting!!!!

[c.d.]

CD, you certainly make a very compelling argument!!! Having mulled it over, I think your right. Stride is back in the C5.

Oh, my God! I am speechless. I actually convinced someone on these boards with my argument. Maybe I should retire now.

c.d.

[The Station Cat]

Yes, awful as it sounds, both doctors at Stride's inquest testified that they had seen self-inflicted wounds that were as bad or worse than her cut throat.

Dr Phillips: "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not usually involved the carotid artery."

Dr Blackwell: "I have myself seen many equally severe wounds self-inflicted. "

That is very interesting!!!

[The Station Cat]

Hello Cat,

I'm afraid that if you are looking for overwhelming, beyond a shadow of a doubt evidence that Stride was a Ripper victim you are going to be disappointed. Unfortunately, it boils down to what is more likely.

I would suggest that you turn the question around and see if you can make an airtight case for Stride's killing to be domestic. You have a woman who is linked to prostitution by herself on the streets late at night. There is no apparent motive for her killing. No one heard any sort of argument (post B.S. man) and she was not hit or stabbed anywhere on her body. The police investigation could not uncover anyone who would have had a motive to kill her. Couple this with the possibility that Jack might have been interrupted before he had the opportunity to mutilate her and that if you believe Eddowes was a Ripper victim then Jack was out that night not far away.

To me, Jack being her killer is much more likely.

c.d.

CD, you certainly make a very compelling argument!!! Having mulled it over, I think your right. Stride is back in the C5.

[John G]

Or examples where the victim survived?

I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive (it excludes Annie Farmer, for instance):


Lucy Clarke, Marylebone - February, 1888.

Lucretia Pembroke, Bermondsey - December, 1888.

Amy Howarth, Islington - August, 1888. (Attempted)

Jane Haberfield, Kennington - September, 1888.

Sarah Brett, Peckham - October, 1888.

Rose Payne, Limehouse - January, 1889.

Caroline Butler, Rotherhithe - January, 1889.

Murder was clearly very rare, although I'm sure violent assault wasn't. In any event, this is comparing apples with pears.

[MrBarnett]

Did you by any chance look at the figures of throat relative to males ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Or examples where the victim survived?

I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive (it excludes Annie Farmer, for instance):


Lucy Clarke, Marylebone - February, 1888.

Lucretia Pembroke, Bermondsey - December, 1888.

Amy Howarth, Islington - August, 1888. (Attempted)

Jane Haberfield, Kennington - September, 1888.

Sarah Brett, Peckham - October, 1888.

Rose Payne, Limehouse - January, 1889.

Caroline Butler, Rotherhithe - January, 1889.

[Trevor Marriott]

Throat cutting murders were incredibly uncommon at the time. For instance, in 1888 I believe there was only one other example in the whole of London ( pop, 5.6 million), outside of the C5. Statistics also reveal that in 1887 only 11 female adults were murdered by way of knife, and in 1889 there were also 11: see http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...651#post314651

Interestingly, there were 17 such murders in 1888, which was clearly an anomalous year. Of course, the six additional victims could be accounted for by the C5 plus Tabram.

Did you by any chance look at the figures of throat cutting relative to males ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Rosella]

In 1888 London police dealt with 28 cases of murder, 94 of manslaughter. Roughly half were female victims. There were 14 unsolved murders in 1888. Besides the C-5 and Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Rose Mylett and the unknown torso at Scotland Yard,there were

Emma Wakefield -Botched abortion.
Elizabeth Smith -possible drowning after being left drunk.
Elizabeth Gorman -Botched abortion.
Annie Mary French-Chloroform poisoning (lover suspected)
Lucy Clark - death by blunt instrument in course of robbery.

Jan Bondeson in Rivals of the Ripper investigates many cases of females being murdered. In seven between 1872 and 1888 there are five in which the women are bludgeoned to death with a heavy instrument, in one a strangulation also occurs. In another the throat is also cut. In one no cause of death could be found due to lapse of time between death and the body being discovered and one woman, a prostitute, dies from a cut throat by knife or razor.

[Joshua Rogan]

It depends what you mean by throatcutting of course. Cutting one's own throat with a razor was a fairly typical method of suicide in Victorian times with few more sophisticated methods available.

Yes, awful as it sounds, both doctors at Stride's inquest testified that they had seen self-inflicted wounds that were as bad or worse than her cut throat.

Dr Phillips: "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not usually involved the carotid artery."

Dr Blackwell: "I have myself seen many equally severe wounds self-inflicted. "

[c.d.]

Hello Cat,

I'm afraid that if you are looking for overwhelming, beyond a shadow of a doubt evidence that Stride was a Ripper victim you are going to be disappointed. Unfortunately, it boils down to what is more likely.

I would suggest that you turn the question around and see if you can make an airtight case for Stride's killing to be domestic. You have a woman who is linked to prostitution by herself on the streets late at night. There is no apparent motive for her killing. No one heard any sort of argument (post B.S. man) and she was not hit or stabbed anywhere on her body. The police investigation could not uncover anyone who would have had a motive to kill her. Couple this with the possibility that Jack might have been interrupted before he had the opportunity to mutilate her and that if you believe Eddowes was a Ripper victim then Jack was out that night not far away.

To me, Jack being her killer is much more likely.

c.d.

[John G]

Throat cutting murders were incredibly uncommon at the time. For instance, in 1888 I believe there was only one other example in the whole of London ( pop, 5.6 million), outside of the C5. Statistics also reveal that in 1887 only 11 female adults were murdered by way of knife, and in 1889 there were also 11: see http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...651#post314651

Interestingly, there were 17 such murders in 1888, which was clearly an anomalous year. Of course, the six additional victims could be accounted for by the C5 plus Tabram.