Other "victims"?

[Rosella]

Malvina Haynes wasn't stabbed though. She was knocked down and violently assaulted, probably left with lasting injuries, but not stabbed.

http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t1131-malvina-haynes-attacked-april-2

[The Station Cat]

PC2267,

There were some knife attacks, very violent ones in fact, that occurred in Whitechapel, that may have been a build-up to the main Ripper murders. There were also the other murders that you have likely heard of in the series.

• Emily Horsnell - murdered, Nov 1887
• Annie Millwood - stabbed and later died, Feb 1888
• Ada Wilson - throat cut, March 1888 (survived)
• Emma Smith - murdered, April 1888
• Malvina Haynes - stabbed, April 1888 (survived)
• Georgina Green - stabbed, May 1888 (survived)

How interesting!!! Are we saying here that these women may have been victims of "Jack", but they just didn't know it? Or was their assailant known/apprehended?

[Rosella]

Malvina Haynes wasn't stabbed was she? As far as I remember she was married, (her husband was a painter) with a son, and she had ventured out at night in Whitechapel.

Nothing is really known about her attack or attacker, just that she suffered scalp wounds from being knocked down and was concussed. Malvina herself could remember nothing.

She was found, taken to the London Hospital and survived. Her husband praised the London Hospital doctors, and she was still alive at the time of the 1891 census, living with her family and making a living as a seamstress.

[Debra A]

Hi Uncle Jack
Thanks. Im not familiar with Horsnell, Haynes or green. Can you elaborate on the where, how etc? or at least point me in the direction to learn more about them?

Hi Aby
This is all there is on Horsnell

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=458&page=6

post #52
Emily died of peritonitis at 19 George St Spitalfields, brought on after sustaining kicks to her abdomen by men she didn't know. There was no post mortem. I've recently looked further at her life on JTRforums:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22194

How Brown also started this thread on Georgina Green. I hadn't heard of her before either.

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11762

[Abby Normal]

PC2267,

There were some knife attacks, very violent ones in fact, that occurred in Whitechapel, that may have been a build-up to the main Ripper murders. There were also the other murders that you have likely heard of in the series.

• Emily Horsnell - murdered, Nov 1887
• Annie Millwood - stabbed and later died, Feb 1888
• Ada Wilson - throat cut, March 1888 (survived)
• Emma Smith - murdered, April 1888
• Malvina Haynes - stabbed, April 1888 (survived)
• Georgina Green - stabbed, May 1888 (survived)

Hi Uncle Jack
Thanks. Im not familiar with Horsnell, Haynes or green. Can you elaborate on the where, how etc? or at least point me in the direction to learn more about them?

[Mayerling]

Out of curiosity, in the period of say April 1888 to February / March 1891, were there any murders committed in Britain (not just London's East End) where the victims were women of the upper classes (middle to upper class) who were killed by stabbing, cut throat, or whatever? Has anyone ever researched it?

[Uncle Jack]

PC2267,

There were some knife attacks, very violent ones in fact, that occurred in Whitechapel, that may have been a build-up to the main Ripper murders. There were also the other murders that you have likely heard of in the series.

• Emily Horsnell - murdered, Nov 1887
• Annie Millwood - stabbed and later died, Feb 1888
• Ada Wilson - throat cut, March 1888 (survived)
• Emma Smith - murdered, April 1888
• Malvina Haynes - stabbed, April 1888 (survived)
• Georgina Green - stabbed, May 1888 (survived)

[Jon Guy]

Also, re Emily Walter-thanks. Seems like an odd coincidence?.

It`s not a given fact that Piggott assaulted Walter.
But, if you look at Walter`s statement, and look at Piggott`s own account, I can`t help thinking they`re the same incident.

Puckerage also has intrigued me. Mentioned by Warren in a report that they were looking for him. But nothing on record he was found or exonerated.
But the link is obviously tentative, and other than warrens mention, nothing ties him to the case.

Yes, he is interesting, but differs to Ludwig, Piggott and Grant in that they all assaulted women(possibly prostituting themselves). Ludwig and Grant even more so, as they carried and waved about their knives.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Yes, Piggott had a police "guard" during his stay at the infirmary.

Emily Walter or Walton claimed to the press that she had been assaulted by a man on the morning of Chapman`s murder somewhere in Hanbury Street.

Thanks Jon
I didn't know that about Piggott. I thought he was still a possibility but I guess not.

Also, re Emily Walter-thanks. Seems like an odd coincidence?

Puckerage also has intrigued me. Mentioned by Warren in a report that they were looking for him. But nothing on record he was found or exonerated.
But the link is obviously tentative, and other than warrens mention, nothing ties him to the case.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John
Piggott apparently was admitted to the WC infirmary on 10 sept and discharged 9 oct. the double event was sept 30.

was he really supervised during his whole stay at the infirmary? couldn't patients come and go? I find it hard to believe he would be contained and or supervised for a whole month? Does that make sense?

also who is Emily Walter?

Hi Abby

Yes, Piggott had a police "guard" during his stay at the infirmary.

Emily Walter or Walton claimed to the press that she had been assaulted by a man on the morning of Chapman`s murder somewhere in Hanbury Street.

[Abby Normal]

Yes, he was cleared on account of been locked up during the Double Event, and I guess the police investigated his whereabouts on the other dates, but you never know, Rosella...

In a situation eerily similar to Sutcliffe`s arrest, Ludwig is caught by police with Elizabeth Burns in an alley not too far away from Mitre Square. This, to my mind, is the sort of close encounter that we may expect to ... ermm, encounter the Ripper.

William Henry Piggott admitted to assaulting a woman very near to where Chapman was murdered, and tentatively identified as the man with the blood on his hands drinking in Mrs Fiddymont`s pub on the morning of Chapman murder. Although, it was probably Emily Walter he encountered, Piggott`s confused mental state, due to alcoholism, meant he had to be investigated by the police. Another, who was cleared by been under supervision during the Double Event.

Of course, William Grant Grainger takes the biscuit. He is actually caught by the police attacking Alice Graham with his knife on the streets of Spitalfields.

Hi John
Piggott apparently was admitted to the WC infirmary on 10 sept and discharged 9 oct. the double event was sept 30.

was he really supervised during his whole stay at the infirmary? couldn't patients come and go? I find it hard to believe he would be contained and or supervised for a whole month? Does that make sense?

also who is Emily Walter?

[Jon Guy]

Yes, Ludwig appeared promising and was investigated, but was locked up at the time of the double event so he couldn't have been Jack. 'One Arm Liz' was lucky though!

Yes, he was cleared on account of been locked up during the Double Event, and I guess the police investigated his whereabouts on the other dates, but you never know, Rosella...

In a situation eerily similar to Sutcliffe`s arrest, Ludwig is caught by police with Elizabeth Burns in an alley not too far away from Mitre Square. This, to my mind, is the sort of close encounter that we may expect to ... ermm, encounter the Ripper.

William Henry Piggott admitted to assaulting a woman very near to where Chapman was murdered, and tentatively identified as the man with the blood on his hands drinking in Mrs Fiddymont`s pub on the morning of Chapman murder. Although, it was probably Emily Walter he encountered, Piggott`s confused mental state, due to alcoholism, meant he had to be investigated by the police. Another, who was cleared by been under supervision during the Double Event.

Of course, William Grant Grainger takes the biscuit. He is actually caught by the police attacking Alice Graham with his knife on the streets of Spitalfields.

[Rosella]

Yes, Ludwig appeared promising and was investigated, but was locked up at the time of the double event so he couldn't have been Jack. 'One Arm Liz' was lucky though!

[Jon Guy]

Charles Ludwig Wetzel

[Abby Normal]

As I'm sure everyone on the forum is well aware. The Ripper case and `his` victims are well documented. He appears to have, done the deed and any follow actions without making any noise or leaving any clues (that we know of) and disappeared into the night like a phantom.

I'm curious to know whether there are any other `victims`, where perhaps he was disturbed and the victim managed to escape somehow. Are there any cases that were reported to the police? More academic would be cases that for whatever reason weren't reported to the police? The Yorkshire Ripper had some of his victims escape so why not Jack?

What were the circs of this incidents and were they followed up by the police?

Hi PC
Great post and I have often wondered this myself. Maybe for the research inclined as I am certainly not.

as far as I know:
Millwood
Wilson
farmer

Millwood being most likely of them to have been attacked by the ripper IMHO.

Im sure there are others.

I wonder if the many excellent researchers have scoured the court and or police records to find these types of incidents( men who have attacked women/prostitutes with a knife) where the woman survived and the mans name is known, around the time of the ripper killings, say 1886-1890.

It might yield a valid suspect.

Would love to here the results of this research if it was ever done.