Did the 5 canonical victims know each other?

[Supe]

Colin,

We seem to have had much the same ideas at the same time. They say great minds think alike, but that wouldn't apply to us.

Don.

[Flagg]

It's a possibility. Those in that line of work tend to look after each other. I'm sure there was competition for business between them. Even if they didn't know each other personally, they knew who their competition was.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Flagg,

It's a possibility. Those in that line of work tend to look after each other.

They weren't in any line of work, for the most part. They would darn clothing, sweep floors, peel vegetables, do laundry, wash dishes, make matchboxes, run errands, hawk cheap nick-nacks, fruit or flowers - whatever came their way. Many of them had small allowances from their partners (past or present), received donations from charities or claimed relief from the "parish" or the church. We know that some of them sponged money from their families periodically.

When all these avenues failed, they might resort to begging from strangers for the price of a single bed. If they had no luck there, they might accost a man for the price of a double bed that they could share. Once in a while they might find a man as desperate for nookie as they were for money, in which case a "knee-trembler" down some dark alley might ensue.

These women were not, by any means, "professional" hookers in the conventional sense, and it's worth remembering Colin/Glenn's "vagrant/bag-lady" analogies in this regard - because that's what most of the Ripper's victims were.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Interesting comments. On the vagrant issue, with the Canonicals, I would disagree....only 3 of the Canon were homeless by virtue of their circumstances at the time of their death....Mary Kelly was not a vagrant, and Liz Stride chose not to use the money she made cleaning her last afternoon for a bed.

The women sold themselves to live, to sleep, eat and drink,.... just like modern day street prostitutes sell themselves for booze, food, drugs, or perhaps a place to sleep. And many have boyfriends, who bring people the whores would never have met otherwise, into their social circle.

When I mentioned cultural associations, I wasnt referring to The Lions Club, or the local Chamber of Commerce, ...perhaps more like an Irish women hanging out with Irish friends when out and about in pubs. For safety in numbers, and for a local network that might help out, if in this case, an Irish woman was beaten by a client for example.

And I think there are examples of individuals in the East End at the time that may have known all 5 Canonicals, ....in the form of Social Workers like Barnardo.

Them being known by each other, or them all being known by some individuals, is what Im after here. Charington....he forced the closure of some 200 brothels (as per his biographer), over the course of a few years, and his picture was alledgedly in most brothels as a reminder that he, not so much the police,... was a danger to their operations.

Its the Six Degrees of Separation notion Im suggesting. Kate has a boyfriend John, who knows of a guy, or knows men that know Joe Barnett or Joe Fleming, and they know a woman quite well named Mary Jane Kelly living just off Dorset. John mentions the woman to Kate at some point.
And that results in Kate knowing of Mary Kelly.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

perhaps more like an Irish women hanging out with Irish friends when out and about in pubs. For safety in numbers...

Safety in numbers? Glad you mentioned that, Mike...



The red dots are a rough approximation (based on 1881/91 censuses) of the residents in one small part of (East) Dorset Street, and the blue dots represent about 50 people crammed into Ringer's. Based on this crude visual representation, I can't see that there was much likelihood that the victims were "pub-chums".

Just a reminder that Kelly was the only one known to have been living in that part of Dorset Street - Chapman lived down the far (West) end of the street, whereas Eddowes and the others lived mostly elsewhere.

And I think there are examples of individuals in the East End at the time that may have known all 5 Canonicals, ....in the form of Social Workers like Barnardo.

...in amongst the hundreds of thousands of other residents of the East End?

We must bear in mind the demographics - we're talking about one of the most densely populated slums in British history, not a quaint English hamlet with a couple of cosy pubs facing the village green.

Its the Six Degrees of Separation notion Im suggesting. Kate has a boyfriend John, who knows of a guy, or knows men that know Joe Barnett or Joe Fleming...

...who belonged to another age-group to Kate entirely. It's not just demographics, but the generation gap we have to bear in mind.

[Septic Blue]

On the vagrant issue, with the Canonicals, I would disagree...

You may disagree as much as you like, Michael; but your position is bound to be quite tenuous !!!

...only 3 of the Canon were homeless by virtue of their circumstances at the time of their death....Mary Kelly was not a vagrant, and Liz Stride chose not to use the money she made cleaning her last afternoon for a bed.

"... Mary Kelly was not a vagrant, …"

I think we would gain a much better understanding of these women (Coles, Kelly and Mylett being the possible exceptions), if we stopped referring to them as "prostitutes", "working girls", "sex workers", etc ... and started referring to them as precisely what they were: Vagrants !!!

"… (Coles, Kelly and Mylett being the possible exceptions), …"

Coles, Kelly and Mylett all had the benefit of relative youthfulness. Coles was quite clearly very attractive; and Kelly had a hovel, which she was able to call her own. These three were likely to have been professional street-prostitutes: i.e., resigned to the notion that prostitution was their calling in life; and inclined to reap all of its potential rewards (the obstacle of alcoholism, notwithstanding).

"... only 3 of the Canon were homeless by virtue of their circumstances at the time of their death … and Liz Stride chose not to use the money she made cleaning her last afternoon for a bed."

- A strand of hair can be split into halves

- The halves can then be split into halves; thus rendering quarters

- The quarters can then be split into halves; thus rendering eighths

- The eighths can then be split into halves; thus rendering sixteenths

- The sixteenths can then be split …

This of course, can continue ad infinitum !!!

The women sold themselves to live, to sleep, eat and drink,.... just like modern day street prostitutes sell themselves for booze, food, drugs, or perhaps a place to sleep. And many have boyfriends, who bring people the whores would never have met otherwise, into their social circle.

"... just like modern day street prostitutes …"

A comparison of 1888 with the "modern day" has absolutely no relevance to this issue: None whatsoever !!!

The issue concerns two distinctly different breeds (vagrant dolly-mops and professional street-prostitutes), within the same species: They both lived then, as they both live today !!!

If you were to walk along 'The Evil Quarter-Mile' today, you would be accosted by any number of toothless hags in their forties-or-fifties; each using the same approach: "Oi guv; 'ave ya gawt 20p on ya ???"

Of course, each of them would be seeking substantially more than 20p, while hoping beyond hope that you might be nice enough to give them a couple of quid.

Were you to do just that, and then suggest that ten quid might be forthcoming if they provided 'a favour, or two'; negotiations would likely ensue.

You would also be accosted by any number of more attractive women (but invariably brandishing the look of addiction: dark circles under the eyes; against the backdrop of an extremely pale face) in their late teens, twenties or thirties; each using the same approach: "Marijuana; hashish ???"

Never mind the introduction !!! These women are professional street-prostitutes; and their aim is to turn as many tricks as time (or their impending need for a fix) will permit.

With regard to occupation and social standing: The latter set of women (like Coles, Kelly and Mylett before them) are above all else, prostitutes !!!

But, with regard to occupation and social standing: The former set of women (like Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and McKenzie before them) are above all else, vagrants !!!

I will stake my reputation on the claim that Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and McKenzie probably held out their hands as beggars before offering their bodies as prostitutes, in nearly every solicitous approach that any one of them ever made.

Let's be realistic: This particular set of vagrant women had much better panhandling prospects, than prostitution prospects. While prostitution may have been potentially more lucrative; the opportunities were probably relatively scarce.

These vagrant women; whose vulnerability provided our man with such easily accessible prey, may have occasionally:

- Swept floors, washed windows and folded laundry: But above all else, they were not charwomen

- Invested in 'stock'; and gone to 'market': But above all else, they were not hawkers

- Sold their bodies at the height of desperation; or in the event of a very lucrative opportunity: But above all else, they were not prostitutes

Above all else, they were vagrants !!!


Colin

[perrymason]

Hi Colin,

My apologies missing your exclusion of Kelly, and I cant argue with your logic. Although I do stand by my assumption on the night of her death, Liz Stride was a vagrant by choice...she had earned her bed that afternoon, and didnt choose to pay for it. Implying she may have had other plans.

What Im trying to get at is that people of all walks of life in a big city have tenuous links with almost everyone immediately around them. These women got to know bartenders, maybe some regular drinkers....likely had repeat business, had their own social circles outside the prostitution racket....like Maria and Mary hanging out that Thursday afternoon. They had boyfriends...who knew other blokes in the area, maybe introduced a few local pals to the ladies,..that kind of association.

It doesnt take to many degrees of separation to surmise that there may have been tangential links to each other through those kinds of relationships. Maybe in some cases, more than tangential. Dont we already know of a case where a witness in one potential Ripper case actually lived with a Ripper victim? Poll and Annie was it?

Best regards Colin.

[Flagg]

Hi Flagg,They weren't in any line of work, for the most part. They would darn clothing, sweep floors, peel vegetables, do laundry, wash dishes, make matchboxes, run errands, hawk cheap nick-nacks, fruit or flowers - whatever came their way. Many of them had small allowances from their partners (past or present), received donations from charities or claimed relief from the "parish" or the church. We know that some of them sponged money from their families periodically.

When all these avenues failed, they might resort to begging from strangers for the price of a single bed. If they had no luck there, they might accost a man for the price of a double bed that they could share. Once in a while they might find a man as desperate for nookie as they were for money, in which case a "knee-trembler" down some dark alley might ensue.

These women were not, by any means, "professional" hookers in the conventional sense, and it's worth remembering Colin/Glenn's "vagrant/bag-lady" analogies in this regard - because that's what most of the Ripper's victims were.

Sam, I'm quite familiar with this case and others. I used "line of work." out of respect.

[Septic Blue]

It doesnt take to many degrees of separation to surmise that there may have been tangential links to each other through those kinds of relationships. Maybe in some cases, more than tangential.

I agree wholeheartedly, Michael: Please carry on !!! But do so in light of the qualifier, which you just used: "may have been".

My reason for coming into this discussion was simply to make the point that we are dealing with two distinctly different breeds: vagrant dolly-mops and professional street-prostitutes. In making that point, I would contend that the former figures much more prominently into the equation than does the latter. In fact, those players that might have fit the description 'professional' (Coles, Kelly, Mylett), were themselves on the verge of vagrancy.

Contrary to common perception; most of the women in question were vagrants entangled in prostitution, rather than prostitutes entangled in vagrancy. I would hope that a distinct difference is readily apparent.

I coach my son's football team (that's the only "football": the one, in which a round white ball is moved with the foot), and am thus committed to two training sessions and one match, each week. Were I to die suddenly, just prior to the beginning of a match, I would hope that my obituary would not lend itself to the impression that I was above all else, a football coach.

People should be seen in light of what they are, above all else; not in light of that which provides a convenient (or perhaps sensational) explanation of events leading to their death. Regardless of what these women were doing at the times of their deaths, they were above all else, vagrants !!!

I believe that this is an especially important component of our field of study, as I am of the impression that while professional street-prostitutes of all shapes, sizes and economic standings were to be found throughout the metropolis; alcoholic, vagrant and completely vulnerable dolly-mops were to be found most readily in the Civil Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields.


Colin

[perrymason]

Hi Colin,

Your analysis seems sound, and I think it points out that there were a plethora of women who lived in the streets who resorted to prostitution, and far fewer who chose to prostitute themselves as an occupation. This either explains his victim choices as just picking from the ripest tree...so to speak...or, that from within that population segment...he chose 3, or 5, or more, specific women.

I have heard of this "Football", thats the name you Brits and Europeans use for "Soccer" isnt it?...

Sounds like your a great Dad.

Cheers Colin.

[Ms. Fade]

Apologies if I am repeating points that others have already made!

'Mary' and 'Jane' were both very common first names in the 19th century, and 'Kelly' is still a very common surname, so, although it is interesting to speculate that the canonical victims knew each other, it is possible that it is little more than a coincidence. Street prostitutes used (and still use) pseudonyms - if a streetwalker had been arrested and charged with soliciting on a previous occasion, she would often use a pseudonym if she was arrested again to disguise the fact that she already had a record, because revealing that could lead to a stiffer punishment the second/third/fourth time around.

The poster who commented about the large numbers of people resident in such a small area of the East End is quite right. I'm a historian, and I have recently been doing some research into my own family history - some of my ancestors were living in the East End of London in the 1880s, and when I examined the census returns, it soon became obvious that the property my ancestors lived in was also home to many other families. I suspect that if the canonical victims did know each other, it was in passing, in the same way that you might often see someone at the train station, or in the pub, but not know them to speak to or be friendly with.

An interesting discussion!

Ms.F

[ianincleveland]

interesting thread.Last night i was at my girlfriends local pub,a village about 7 miles from here.Now theres a few people i know in there to chat to who i know by name,others i on nodding terms with and some i dont know or remember at all.Now this place has a population of around 1200.I might know 20 of them very well,be on speaking/nodding terms with a further 100 and am clueless about the rest.Its possible any of the victims were on nodding/speaking terms,like Eddowes and Kelly with Eddowes using Kellys name.but i dont think they were best of friends else after Chapmans death the other 3 would be beating a path to the nearest police station suggesting they could be in danger.

this is the main reason i always rejected the blackmail theory of Knight. After Chapman had died theyd have been going to the police showing a connection.

so yes a couple may have been on nodding terms but i feel very little else

[Sam Flynn]

Its possible any of the victims were on nodding/speaking terms,like Eddowes and Kelly with Eddowes using Kellys name.

Strictly speaking, she didn't, Ian - both "Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street" and "Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street" aren't too far off superficially, but they are incorrect on a number of counts.

The East End had a superabundance of Irish immigrants, with many Kellys amongst them. Indeed, Eddowes "significant other" at the time of her death was John Kelly, and she'd sometimes go by the name of "Kate Kelly" accordingly - her choice of "Kelly" as an alias would thus have been quite natural.

Add to that the fact that both "Mary" and "Jane" were extremely common names at that time - rivaled only, perhaps, by Elizabeth and Anne - then it becomes quickly apparent that "{Something} Kelly", "Mary {Something} Kelly" or "{Something} Jane Kelly" would have been fairly obvious choices as aliases.

[ianincleveland]

Strictly speaking, she didn't, Ian - both "Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street" and "Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street" aren't too far off superficially, but they are incorrect on a number of counts.

The East End had a superabundance of Irish immigrants, with many Kellys amongst them. Indeed, Eddowes "significant other" at the time of her death was John Kelly, and she'd sometimes go by the name of "Kate Kelly" accordingly - her choice of "Kelly" as an alias would thus have been quite natural.

Add to that the fact that both "Mary" and "Jane" were extremely common names at that time - rivaled only, perhaps, by Elizabeth and Anne - then it becomes quickly apparent that "{Something} Kelly", "Mary {Something} Kelly" or "{Something} Jane Kelly" would have been fairly obvious choices as aliases.

Thats very possible and could be why Mary Jane Kelly cant be traced anywhere in that it was an alias name

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed so, Ian