Did the 5 canonical victims know each other?

[anna]

Hi Sam,
I know,cheeky Anna when there's so many scholars on the boards,and I go making the thread "girlie" with sentimental nonsense,
about a fire engine impersonator!!!
Seriously,I appreciate how important the facts are,and are what I'm ultimately here for, but sometimes the characters of the women get lost amongst all the hoo-ha of the events.
I wish we knew more about Annie and Polly as people,and not just big infirm ladies who got drunk and had no money,plus the facts and figures of their lives...no little touches..like Kate was fun,Liz liked her drama and Mary was feisty..or is that just me being sentimental again?

Anyway, nice to hear from you!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Anna,

sometimes the characters of the women get lost amongst all the hoo-ha of the events.

Mustn't lose sight of that, and I agree that our field of interest would be somewhat diminished without whatever insights we might gain into the lives of the characters involved.

[anna]

Thanks Sam, top man as usual.

[perrymason]

Interesting that Kate may have used an alias that belonged to someone else she may have known in the form of "Jane" Kelly. She was "Jane" according to the Pawn Ticket dated Friday night, perhaps the ladies met her after that. Who knows who the actual "Jane" Kelly was the article says was still alive. And she was Mary Kelly Saturday night,.... but surely unlikely she would have known a "Mary" Kelly as well.

If a link could be proven that all 5 women knew of each other, then it is certainly possible the killer would also be known by all of them too. And perhaps by others who knew the victims. Their individual links are as relevant as only that....they could possibly help define a social circle that a killer resides within. And perhaps motives for some of the murders.

Does anyone know if any gang type characters brought street whores clients for kickbacks, for example? Do we know that one of Marys ex's didnt "date" other C5 victims for example? Do we know that all the Canonicals had nothing worth killing them for? Not even information? Did they all know a single clergyman, or an anarchist Socialist,..did they all know some of the same street beat cops? We know gangs shook down whores and clients, ...had they been shaken down by the same men, or did they all know some of the same local bad guys?

Remember, Emma was definately attacked by a gang, but who knows if one of them or more werent this "Jack" fellow?

Ill drop it. But anytime Im told that unsolved murder case investigations based on a serial madmans spree wouldnt be signifigantly altered if a link of all 5 Canonical victims was established, I have to disagree.

Best regards.

[mikey559]

A link from one to another.

All I'm asking for is a factual link between any 2 of the 5 canonical victims. Not a coincidence. I have had different "beliefs" all my life regarding these crimes. Those beliefs have been challenged and as my knowledge grows and as my training has increased over the years, I have changed my "beliefs". While working on other crimes, I have found links to other victims that shed an entirely different light on the crime. I have long hoped that something similar would happen with this case. If all 5 were actually killed by the same killer and we could link any of the victims toegether by something more than their murder, we might actually move closer to a real solution to this case.

I don't think it will happen. I don't think we can even find out anymore if they knew each other. As it stands today we can not even factually say that they were killed by the same hand. We can guess, assume, think, whatever, we still can't prove anything.

Mikey

[Robert]

Hi Mikey

Of course the odds are always against anything unambiguously helpful appearing in this case. But then, all it would require would be a Press report to surface - say, Mary Jane Kelly of Millers Court, Dorset Street and Annie Sivvey of wherever, accused of rolling a sailor. Case dismissed. Sailor leaves court vowing vengeance.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

had they been shaken down by the same men, or did they all know some of the same local bad guys?

Again, we aren't talking about "classical" prostitutes - at least two, if not more, of the C5 seem to have been occasional streetwalkers at best/worst, and until very recently Polly Nichols had been living in the West of London and holding down a decent job, however briefly - she, like some of the others, was only a comparatively recent "immigrant" to the Spitalfields area. Given that most of them were superannuated anyway, it is unlikely that any of the C5 - Kelly, perhaps, excepted - would have been in thrall to any local pimps; and given the likely casual nature of their prostitution, it is unlikely that they'd have been roughed up by the same man (apart from "you-know-who", of course).

The notion of them mixing in the same social circles is also somewhat questionable - the East End may have been a great leveller, but people were still individuals, and would have tended to clump together according to age, background and personality. Would a 25-year-old Kelly have hung around with the same sort of people as forty-somethings like Nichols or Stride? Would chirpy, perky Catherine Eddowes have bothered with the likes of the sickly Annie Chapman and her Walter Mitty "pensioner" friend? It's possible, but not compellingly so to my way of thinking.

[Septic Blue]

... Emma was definately attacked by a gang, ...

Can you imagine the tall tales that 'Mary Ann Kelly' of '6 Fashion Street' would have communicated, had she survived her attack ???

Invariably; she would have been somewhere on the beaten path, so that the reason for her whereabouts would not have been called into question.

Also invariably; she would have been innocently minding her own business, while most certainly not engaged in any illicit or immoral activities.

Finally, and again invariably; she would have been randomly set upon by whatever number of complete strangers she thought would make the whole thing believable.

... we aren't talking about "classical" prostitutes - at least two, if not more, of the C5 seem to have been occasional streetwalkers at best/worst, ...

I think we would gain a much better understanding of these women (Coles, Kelly and Mylett being the possible exceptions), if we stopped referring to them as "prostitutes", "working girls", "sex workers", etc ... and started referring to them as precisely what they were: Vagrants !!!

If you were to walk along 'The Evil Quarter-Mile' today, you would be accosted by any number of toothless hags in their forties-or-fifties; each using the same approach: "Oi guv; 'ave ya gawt 20p on ya ???"

Of course, each of them would be seeking substantially more than 20p, while hoping beyond hope that you might be nice enough to give them a couple of quid.

Were you to do just that, and then suggest that ten quid might be forthcoming if they provided 'a favour, or two'; negotiations would likely ensue.

These are the sort of women, with whom we are dealing in our study of Jack the Ripper: Vagrants !!! Women, in whom extortionist gangs would have had no interest whatsoever !!! They probably held out their hands as beggars, before offering there bodies as prostitutes, in nearly every solicitous encounter they ever made.

I'm sure that many vagrants occasionally resort to thievery. But, I would think that those that do would still be seen as mere "vagrants"; as opposed to "thieves" or "reallocation workers".


Colin

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Colin,

I definitely agree with you about referring to the women as vagrants, because that is what most of them were (Eddowes - judging from the large number of possessions and clothes she kept on herself - I would almost consider somewhat of a Victorian "baglady"). Excellently put. In fact, that is how such women actually was referred to and labelled as in Scandinavian police files.
No doubt the prostitution thing was just of secondary nature and something they shared with hundreds of women from the poorer classes. And as we know, some of them DID have other jobs when available.

As for the "gang" problem (as in the case of Smith), I think we shouldn't be mislead by the Stephen Knight-inspired idea of extortion gangs, because as you imply, there would be little money to get from any of those women.
However, that doesn't rule out a group of men assaulting women for other purposes. Since the vital wound on Smith was a result of a weapon thrusted into her vagina, this indicates an attack of perhaps sadistic, sexual nature.
If Smith told the truth about the gang part of her story, then it is obvious that the group of men attacked her and sexually assaulted her, not to rob her of any earnings. And that wouldn't really be that strange - such group assaults happens even today. No doubt there are several things in her story that don't add up, but the gang story could well be true. But it hardly was an extortion gang, as the alleged (or even fictional) Nichols gang was supposed to be.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

I definitely agree with you about referring to the women as vagrants, because that is what most of them were (Eddowes - judging from the large number of possessions and clothes she kept on herself - I would almost consider somewhat of a Victorian "baglady"). Excellently put.

Indeed - good observation Colin, and I like the "baglady" analogy too, Glenn. If nothing else, thinking of most of the C5 as "vagrants" is more useful than the more emotive, and IMO inaccurate, use of the terms "prostitute" (with all its stereotypical, Hollywoodized connotations) and - saints preserve us! - "whore".

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Indeed, Sam. Indeed.

"...and - saints preserve us! - "whore"."

A Martin Fido quote, I believe...

All the best

[perrymason]

Hello folks,

I mentioned cultural associations before, and what I was hinting at asking was... were there Irish threads running through some of the canonicals lives?

I would imagine on Bloody Sunday, the representation would be in groups..... in the form of National Socialsts...The Immigrant Polish Jews, the Russians, the Fenians, Dockers....if you can envision different flags and groups with that 10,000......maybe some of our Canonicals met at events, or marches. Like the gangs in Scorcese's Gangs of New York, albeit early 19th century.... hanging out with their Nationalist/Separationist friends, or glomming onto a group as friends of someone who is involved, or knows the others.

I think the Fenians have been shown to be the most active and potentially dangerous organization at that particular time in the East End, and almost certainly some investigators had multiple mandates that Fall involving their whereabouts and activities. Abberlines Posse comes to mind...Godley, Pearce, Reid, and others... did many interviews, and it was Abberline and Reid who sifted the ashes again Saturday morning.

Could the women have been linked in that way? Marys a no-brainer, sure she might know some Fenians, as with Joe,... but do we have some Irish die hards or sympathizers in the others?

If you will allow me this speculation.....I think you might agree there is some synchronicity with anarchists in this series. And with the work history of some senior Investigators. Our local rising star whose career was built on high profile Fenian arrests while stationed in Whitechapel.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Abberlines Posse comes to mind...Godley, Pearce, Reid, and others...

Abberline's "Hollywood" Posse, you mean, Mike? Let's be under no illusions, especially with regard to Godley - who wasn't Watson to Abberline's Holmes, but a jobbing bobby, more likely to collar some stroppy drunk in the street than to be working full-time on smashing an international anarchist conspiracy.

I think you might agree there is some synchronicity with anarchists in this series.

Only inasmuch as there was a synchronicity between the Suffragettes, the foundation of the Boy Scouts movement by Baden Powell and the "discovery" of Piltdown Man.

And with the work history of some senior Investigators.

There weren't that many senior investigators to go around, and each would have had a range of responsibilities - not all of which need necessarily have been cohesive or based on any particular specialism.

Abberline, for instance, wasn't what we might term a "Homicide" detective, neither could he have been described as one of the "Anti-terrorist Squad". Out of 28 cases at the Old Bailey between 1871 and 1888, Abberline was involved in investigating the following crimes:

Theft (11)
Fraud (7)
Forgery (6)
Arson (1)
Treason (1)
Wounding (1)
Murder (1)

...the latter, solitary, murder case happening in 1885, as was the single instance of treason (pro-Irish dynamitards). He may have been involved in other investigations that didn't make it through to the Criminal Court - but the strong impression given by this sample from the Old Bailey is that Abberline was mainly engaged in good, honest, everyday police work. The same was true of Edmund Reid.

[Septic Blue]

... maybe some of our Canonicals met at events, or marches.

Social Activists ???

Because of their alcoholism and destitution, most of these vagrant women couldn't foresee anything beyond their next drink, meal or doss. Social activism would not have crossed their minds.

And either way; I don't think many of the activists (excepting those who were truly benevolent) would have welcomed them !!!

Blue-Collar society in Victorian London was not homogeneous, by any stretch of the imagination.


Colin

[Supe]

Michael,

Could the women have been linked in that way?

What evidence is there that any of the Canonic 5 victims were in the least bit political? From what we know there is nothing to even suggest they had any political concerns. For most, life was a daily grind of earning a few pence whatever way they could and hoping their desire for gin could be muted until they had a night's lodging in hand and some sustenance in their stomachs. Their perseverence, at least, demands our respect (Polly and Annie were stil trudging the streets late at nightt hoping for one more score that would mean shelter)) and understanding that would strongly suggest they were not the sort to be members of a Marxist study group, a Fenian cell or a music hall performer fan club.

For that matter, what political organization besides a Keystone Kops Konspiracy would want these sad souls associated with it? I really think you are looking for things that aren't there. And all the conditional clauses you can conjure up won't make it any different. Since you obviously have great passion for the Ripper mystery you might want to turn that ardor to more productive areas of speculation and investigation.

Don.