Did the 5 canonical victims know each other?

[Nothing to see]

I saw a programme a few years ago where some scientist used a computer to suggest where the ripper may have lived- and the conlusion was Flower and Dean Street. I wonder if he chose his victims in advance- perhaps seeing the woman around the vicinity and noting their behaviour?

OK This info comes from Paul Begg's " JTR The Facts" p486. Dorset St features prominently in the story as most of the victims lived in Dorset St. Chapman at 30 and when killed 35 (Crossingham's); Stride at at 38 with Kidney; Eddowes used 26 as an occasional doss; Kelly in Miller's Ct.

That leaves Nicholls.

[anna]

Suzi is absolutely spot on!

OF COURSE they knew each other.....no doubt about it...


Others have such a problem accepting the obvious.IMHO,

[Mrs Darrell]

I saw a programme a few years ago where some scientist used a computer to suggest where the ripper may have lived- and the conlusion was Flower and Dean Street. I wonder if he chose his victims in advance- perhaps seeing the woman around the vicinity and noting their behaviour?

[The English Gardener]

Damn, I just wittered about this in another thread. I'll c & p it here, as it's more than pertinent here."
[if you assume they knew each other]"Then you must also assume that level of aquaintance to be with absolutely everybody who lived in the area. It's not nearly enough to make assumptions like this. They could have known each other, that's for certain. But "could" and "must have" are a long long way removed from each other. If their lives did indeed crisscross, then they also crisscrossed with thousands of others. And, as Sam has pointed out, The Ten Bells was only one of the many pubs and beer houses in the immediate area. Any directory will show how many you're looking at. You might also consult any OS map of the area- bearing in mund that only the pubs are shown. As Sam has already mentioned, Dorset Street alone had two pubs {The Blue Coat Boy and The Horn Of Plenty} and one beer house {The Britannia}. There is absolutely no evidence that any of the C5 knew each other, and the sheer weight of the odds against such intimacy mitigates against it. With no evidence to even imply aquaintance, and every reason to doubt aquaintance, I entirely fail to see why anyone would consider it even likely that any 2 of the 5 women we are talking about here knew each other. The odds are stacked hugely against it. And the odds against all 5 knowing each other are, correspondingly, vanishingly small."
Just my bit.

[Sam Flynn]

the pub thing is true though isn't it

Not so sure about that, either, Suzi. The area was littered with pubs, as a glance at the 1885 map "The Modern Plague of London" will illustrate:



The red blobs indicate one or more drinking-holes. I've highlighted the area we're most interested in by drawing a green box around it - plenty of choice there, whichever side of Commercial Street you lived on. For Kelly and Stride-watchers (pre-1888), it's also clear that there were plenty of pubs to choose from either side of Commercial Road as well.

Apologies for the poor quality of the image, but it was a rush job.

[Suzi]

OK good points Sam- Of course- so had Annie and who knows, at the end of the day- all of 'em (Gawd knows where Mary was probably looking at the sun at times- in a puddle probably....or was that the moon in 'Hobson's Choice' ? )


'Longest standing' ?!!!!!!!!!! eeeeeeek!!! Blimey 1/6d at least!!


Seriously.....


...... the pub thing is true though isn't it- Mind you once you start on Ratcliffe Highway (cue for a song) Gawd knows where you went,how you went,who you with and why you went in the first place!!! (That is if you had the slightest memory of it at all!....... apart from the odd farthing polished up a treat found in your drawers!.......Hmmmmmmmmm)



Exactly though FULL TIME isn't what we're talking about here is it- if it was they wouldn't have been grubbing about for the odd 2d or 4d!!!....let alone 4/6d for the rent!.......unless they were pretty poor 'full-timers'


Interesting though as you say there was a good 'turn out' at the funerals Hmmmmmmmm

The 'quasi-stable' wouldn't be 'The Shed' would it..............

Suz xx

[Sam Flynn]

Think about it, though, Suzi... Nichols had spent much of her life in the years leading up to her murder outside the district, primarily in Lambeth, until she moves to Whitechapel in the early part of 1888. Stride also had spent a significant proportion of her (London) life outside the district, eventually moving into Whitechapel, albeit to St George's East, rather than Spitalfields itself. Kelly, as we (think we) know, spent less than two years in Spitalfields; prior to which she was briefly knocking about Ratcliffe and - allegedly - the West End.

Chapman and Eddowes seem to have been the longest-standing residents of Spitalfields, but neither appear to have been full-time prostitutes, and both were in "quasi-stable" relationships in the years leading up to their deaths. Furthermore, whilst Chapman seems to have been practically rooted to Dorset Street, Eddowes and John Kelly seem to have favoured Flowery Dean.

It's interesting to note that, in the case of the first group (Nichols, Stride and Kelly), many of those who came forward to identify the bodies, or to give information to the police and press, were from outside Spitalfields itself.

[Suzi]

Without a doubt these women knew each other by sight, well maybe as passing drinking partners in the pubs various (and in the area they were legion!- three in Dorset St alone!!)...they MUST have known each other!!

Come on how many of us have used a regular pub -and OK- you don't know the names of the 'regulars'... la la la- but you know things like ...'Oh, you know 'im- he's that bloke who knows/lived with whats'er/is name,down the road behind the shops,over the fish shop, with that woman,with the funny hair, you know the one' ............'Oh 'Im.. the one with the 'tache?...nice bloke, bought me a pint'!!! etc etc .............

So, maybe not by name (names- various) but they knew each other without a doubt!!!!!.......maybe like Caroline Maxwell 'knew' Mary.......Hmmmmmmmmm

[protohistorian]

I'd be more surprised if they didn't know each other to be honest. There was a much stronger community spirit in general in those days, and for these women, living in the same area, living out similar lives, it is highly likely they knew each other. But I think you could've picked out a group of 5 or so prostitutes from the east end at random at that time and found some link between them. I don't think it holds too much significance myself.

I agree. These women may have been casual associates by virtue of plying the same trade occassionally within the same geographic area, but beyond that it seems a push of imagination. There would have been other women within the sorority of casual prostitutes in Whitechapel, equally connected. I have found nothing to suggest more.

[Suzi]

Hi all-
A great conversation here- OK- Mary Jane,Mary Ann etc were very common names see many Music Hall songs of the time... 'Oh shout hooray for Mary Ann, I'm going to get wed' being a good example.

Kate was probably tired and emotional most of the time since she got back from 'opping with Kelly and to use a 'soubriquet' would be an easy way out and also a good way to disappear into the ether...as long as you could remember which particular 'soubriquet' you had used when you went to pick up whatever you'd dropped off at 'Uncles'

I think the term 'Professional' prostitute applied to many at the time but maybe there weren't that many at the 'top of their trade ' so to speak (Certainly not in the East End!) -I can't see it applied to any of the C5 anyway- if we have to stick with that phrase.

These poor dabs looked at that option as a way to earn 4d, not as a 'profession', after all, as Sam said they were often content,and obviously happier cleaning rooms,sewing little bits of this and that etc etc.

The thing about bag-ladies is a great image of course- didn't someone describe Kate as a snail- carrying her life and home on her back- love 'er.

Failing that you could always be 'taken poorly' and spend a few nights free and gratis in the Infirmary or do a bit of oakum picking -if push came to shove- (a serious shove IMHO!)...Either way you were out of the rain and cold!

I reckon a quick "trembler" up the alley was a last ditch attempt to keep things that way.

......'Jolly bonnets' or not!!!!..............Incidently......where did THAT bonnet come from??? .......and how did Kate get so jiggy on no money??? (When you find that one out let me know!!)

Suz xx

[Howard Brown]

I will stake my reputation on the claim that Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and McKenzie probably held out their hands as beggars before offering their bodies as prostitutes, in nearly every solicitous approach that any one of them ever made. --Colin

I wouldn't. Since these women functioned and socialized within a common prole social strata and were "vagrant" or in between menial jobs ( great point,by the way,Colin...), its less likely to me that they would even think or attempt to "ask" for something from someone within that same social milieu without offering something in return at the same time: i.e.,a kneetrembler for 2d. Why? The chances are greater that one of the women would get something in return and probably more quickly with a "give and take" proposition. Factor in the "experience" that the fortysomething victims had with what begging got them as opposed to what turning tricks could. Hard to imagine a poor person successfuly begging off of someone whose meager & hard earned earnings were intended to feed and house their kin.



The point about Coles,Kelly and Mylett rings true for me.

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed so, Ian

[ianincleveland]

Strictly speaking, she didn't, Ian - both "Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street" and "Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street" aren't too far off superficially, but they are incorrect on a number of counts.

The East End had a superabundance of Irish immigrants, with many Kellys amongst them. Indeed, Eddowes "significant other" at the time of her death was John Kelly, and she'd sometimes go by the name of "Kate Kelly" accordingly - her choice of "Kelly" as an alias would thus have been quite natural.

Add to that the fact that both "Mary" and "Jane" were extremely common names at that time - rivaled only, perhaps, by Elizabeth and Anne - then it becomes quickly apparent that "{Something} Kelly", "Mary {Something} Kelly" or "{Something} Jane Kelly" would have been fairly obvious choices as aliases.

Thats very possible and could be why Mary Jane Kelly cant be traced anywhere in that it was an alias name

[Sam Flynn]

Its possible any of the victims were on nodding/speaking terms,like Eddowes and Kelly with Eddowes using Kellys name.

Strictly speaking, she didn't, Ian - both "Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street" and "Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street" aren't too far off superficially, but they are incorrect on a number of counts.

The East End had a superabundance of Irish immigrants, with many Kellys amongst them. Indeed, Eddowes "significant other" at the time of her death was John Kelly, and she'd sometimes go by the name of "Kate Kelly" accordingly - her choice of "Kelly" as an alias would thus have been quite natural.

Add to that the fact that both "Mary" and "Jane" were extremely common names at that time - rivaled only, perhaps, by Elizabeth and Anne - then it becomes quickly apparent that "{Something} Kelly", "Mary {Something} Kelly" or "{Something} Jane Kelly" would have been fairly obvious choices as aliases.

[ianincleveland]

interesting thread.Last night i was at my girlfriends local pub,a village about 7 miles from here.Now theres a few people i know in there to chat to who i know by name,others i on nodding terms with and some i dont know or remember at all.Now this place has a population of around 1200.I might know 20 of them very well,be on speaking/nodding terms with a further 100 and am clueless about the rest.Its possible any of the victims were on nodding/speaking terms,like Eddowes and Kelly with Eddowes using Kellys name.but i dont think they were best of friends else after Chapmans death the other 3 would be beating a path to the nearest police station suggesting they could be in danger.

this is the main reason i always rejected the blackmail theory of Knight. After Chapman had died theyd have been going to the police showing a connection.

so yes a couple may have been on nodding terms but i feel very little else