Did the 5 canonical victims know each other?

[Jon Guy]

Martha and Annie ?

Hello

I appreciate the thread is titled " the 5 Canonical ", but I`ll ignore this annoying and misleading term for the sake of this post.

I noticed the following, which seems to point at the fact that Martha Tabram may well have known Annie Chapman :

One final note of interest concerns 'Pearly Poll." The September 20th edition of the Echo published the following on the Whitechapel Murders:

Inspector Reid, Detective Sergeant Enright, Sergeant Goadby and other officers then worked on a slight clue given them by 'Pearly Poll.' It was not thought much of at the time; but what was gleaned from her and other statements given by Elizabeth Allen and Eliza Cooper of 35 Dorset Street, Spitalfields, certain of the authorities have had cause to suspect a man actually living not far from Buck's Row. At present, however, there is only suspicion against him.

Eliza Cooper been the last person to assault Annie before Jack got his mit`s on her.

Concerning the use of "Mary," "Jane," and "Dorset" by Eddowes:

Anytime you look at a complicated situation involving lots of people, lots of time, lots of places, you're going to get some weird coincidences. If you pick out the single weirdest coincidence, then you can easily convince yourself that there's something there when there's not. And keep in mind that "Marie Jeanette" may not have actually been named Kelly at all.

It actually kind of reminds me of the way that modern porn actresses and exotic dancers all have names like "Traci" and "Raven" when forty years ago they were all "Bunny" and "Candy."

I not saying that there might not be something to it--it just might not be that useful after all.

You never know Christine...might be as you suggest, but the "Jane" is what twigged me really. I understand that to many of Mary's acquaintances, she was known as Mary Jane...not Mary Kelly. Bowyer is one example of that.

The incorporation of all three names and the correct street, although incorrect number and not in Millers Court, is what leads me to believe they had at least, common friends. Kate knew of her. I dont think a close friend would use a name and address so close to being correct..for fear Mary might be arrested later for something Kate did or said...its the close but no cigar... that makes me think she didnt concern herself if she was perhaps giving a name and street that might cause trouble for a real Mary Jane Kelly off Dorset.

But when she steps out of Bishopsgate, and turns left, does she take the "Kelly" alias with her?...or leave it with Hutt, and return to being Catherine "Kate" Conway Kelly Eddowes?

Does she refer to herself as Mary Kelly to the man she touches when Lawende, Levy and Harris stroll past?

Cheers Chris.

[Christine]

Concerning the use of "Mary," "Jane," and "Dorset" by Eddowes:

Anytime you look at a complicated situation involving lots of people, lots of time, lots of places, you're going to get some weird coincidences. If you pick out the single weirdest coincidence, then you can easily convince yourself that there's something there when there's not. And keep in mind that "Marie Jeanette" may not have actually been named Kelly at all.

It actually kind of reminds me of the way that modern porn actresses and exotic dancers all have names like "Traci" and "Raven" when forty years ago they were all "Bunny" and "Candy."

I not saying that there might not be something to it--it just might not be that useful after all.

I suppose I should restructure what I was intending to say earlier....regarding Kates choice of aliases in her last 24 hours. I think it was more than an odd coincidence restrospectively....I believe it indicates that she knew of Mary Jane Kelly off Dorset.

She pawns John's boots as Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset St, and she identifies herself as "nobody"...then later, Mary Kelly of Fashion St to Hutt, the nightdesk man at Bishopsgate. In approx 24 hours. The fact that she used "Jane" and "Dorset" in her alias choice to me is just too coincidental. Two women die calling themselves the same name... in a row. And then it ends...abruptly. Odd. Since she has been hanging out with a Mr Kelly herself, "Kate" Kelly would have been as good an alias as "Mary", and have made more sense. The "Jane", and the "Mary" and Dorset Street are what makes it interesting.

There are provable connections, like Pearly and Annie apparently, but I think this is a case where there is some evidence to suggest that perhaps a C5 knew another C5.

We know she is not identified right away....and since we have her on record as being released from Jail as Mary Kelly...would anyone else outside Hutt know that and believe the woman to be a Mary Kelly for a brief time?

Best regards all.

[CraigInTwinCities]

I think there's a chance a couple of them may have known each other in a passing way, but that's probably the extent of it.

I give little credence to the theory that they were picked off as part of a conspiracy where they were blackmailing the Queen.

But even Whitechapel was heavily populated all by itself, not to mention London in total, so odds are they didn't.

The more important question: what does it matter, one way or the other?

[John Casey]

I cant in all honesty say that I think the c5 knew each other, except maybe as a face in the street or across a crowded pub. After all wasn't one of them supposed to be interviewed in a dosshouse or at least overheard in a dosshouse getting in a right old state because another girl had been killed? If my (admittedly rather addled) memory serves me right, she's meant to have said "another one's been taken" or...something along those lines. Not "Oh my gawd, poor ol' Polly's copped for the ripper!".....of course, as I say my memory aint what it used to be, but I'm sure somebody will recognise what the hell I'm on about!! lol!

It doesn't imply that, Mike - not by a long stretch. Besides, that topic has everything to do with Jack's alleged "selection" procedure, and nothing to do with the question of whether the victims knew one another.

Focus, please

I am focussed Sam, just semi literate....I meant to say that if there was a connection that existed between the women and "someone", that links them all, a mutually known individual.....that has origins from a pub, (like someone who could know all 5 from some location or have seen them at different locations), it would appear by Liz's sobriety and her inclusion in the Canon, that he did not neccesarily act only after they had been seen drinking.

Like he didnt just see them drinking and decide to act.

Regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

As to them having some possible connection via pubs or with alcohol in general, I think it would have to imply that victims were perhaps selected at a watering hole, but not killed that same night.

It doesn't imply that, Mike - not by a long stretch. Besides, that topic has everything to do with Jack's alleged "selection" procedure, and nothing to do with the question of whether the victims knew one another.

Focus, please

Hello all,

As to them having some possible connection via pubs or with alcohol in general, I think it would have to imply that victims were perhaps selected at a watering hole, but not killed that same night. If the C5 were all Jacks doing of course. Cause Liz was sober.

Interesting Simon mentioned Polly and Annie circumstances the night they were killed. Really the only 2 of the 5 in similar straights, and not terribly different in age or appearance. Liz earned money for her bed, but chose not to pay it.....Kate may well have had a bed waiting for her where Kelly is at....she had no way of knowing if he did well or poorly at the market that afternoon....and Mary didnt need to pay for her bed that night.

On a possible landlord connection, maybe McCarthy owned other buildings one or more of the victims lived in. He did own several at some point.

But I think their boozing may be the possible link, and it need not be a bartender or owner...just another boozer who seems to have extra coins to buy them drinks sometimes. Maybe a person who had influence or power in the slums, a "gang" type. Maybe like a Blotchy Face character.

Thats why when he meets them out at night during a street whore murder spree, they dont run. Catches Polly off guard by coming up behind her,....tells Annie he fancies a moment alone with her....playfully grabs at Liz, but it turns sour and he kills her in anger......knows Kate well enough to have her place her hand on his chest....like..."oh darling, you scared me stepping from the shadows like that"....and escorts the last victim home after getting her sloshed.

But their not all the same guy though, are they? Likely Different men by the witness descriptions. But there is maybe an answer. Maybe a Gang leader leads others...others who the women might know work for Mr X, and might accompany if asked to go see him. Maybe Kate sought one of the "others" out.

Ideas "just for the jolly".

Cheers

[Simon Wood]

Hi Glenn and Sam,

Fair enough. If you say it's so, then who am I to argue? You'll get no more argument from me.

Now, Glenn, about that can of worms . . .

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Simon

London's Finest [City & Met] prided themselves on knowing most things that went on in and around the streets of London. Now, they may have looked upon "X" and known her as Doris or Daisy, Gertrude or Sybil [or all of those names], but they would have recognized her.

This may resonate with my earlier observation that many of the "C5" had only been on "H" Division territory for comparatively short periods of time - the oldest among them seemingly only indulging in occasional prostitution.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

London's Finest [City & Met] prided themselves on knowing most things that went on in and around the streets of London. Now, they may have looked upon "X" and known her as Doris or Daisy, Gertrude or Sybil [or all of those names], but they would have recognized her. Surely to God one cop or another had "moved them on" or "cautioned them" at some time or another.

No, Simon.
Believe me, I am talking from experience here, studying hundreds of cases involving street prostitutes.
Regardless of any bragging of the police, they would not likely had known or recognized any of them (the fact that Eddowes managed to make them accept a false name when she registred herself is a sad proof of that) - there were simply too many of them and because of a possible poor communication between different police districts in that respect.

Believe me, fooling the police by using a number of aliases was customary and daily procedure for them. And again, in UK in those days temporary prisoners were most likely not photographed.
I have hundreds of examples involving Danish prostitutes where the women easily fooled the police IN SPITE of that they actually were photographed (Denmark was unique in that respect) - and they still managed to get away with it!

I can assure you, the Met and the City police didn't have a clue and they would have been in good company with police forces in other countries during the same period.

Al the best

[Simon Wood]

Hi Glenn,

Cans of worms are fine with me.

But before Sam berates me for being off-thread—

London's Finest [City & Met] prided themselves on knowing most things that went on in and around the streets of London. Now, they may have looked upon "X" and known her as Doris or Daisy, Gertrude or Sybil [or all of those names], but they would have recognized her. Surely to God one cop or another had "moved them on" or "cautioned them" at some time or another. We know, for instance, that Stride had been up before the Beak on a few occasions.

But as far as the cops were concerned C1 to C4 appear to have existed in a vacuum.

Regards,

Simon

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

All we are left with is Millers Court. And if that was a "Ripper" murder I'll eat my hat.

I am definitely with Simon on that one (although probably for different reasons), but hey - I don't want to open a can of worms here.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Well, Simon, we must remember that street prostitutes often used false names (just take Eddowes' usage of a false name at the police station) in order to make themsleves harder to identify.
I have come across several examples of how such women managed to fool the police for years until the autorities finally realized that files about several women actually concerned one and the same person. In those days female prisoners weren't photographed and their personal details were rather difficult to check, specially if they had no firm address or residence.
Not only the names were often faked, but also other factual details as date of birth etc.

All the best