Did the 5 canonical victims know each other?

[John Casey]

Just another thought to throw in the pot as it were. I wonder if Mary Kelly was to victorian streetwalkers what Joe Bloggs or John Doe would be to us? Just a usefull name to use when all else fails?

As for whether it's worth chasing this line of enquiry, well....depends....interesting rather than usefull perhaps, but nobody HAS to post on any of these boards all the best to you's

[Simon Wood]

Hi Don,

What's so wrong about a "stroll in the fever swamps of conspiracy"? [Good phrase, by the way].

Everything else has failed miserably.

Regards,

Simon

[Supe]

Glenn,

So can anyone please tell me why this is a valid concpet at all, and why I am wasting my time with this?

You don't really want me to answer that, do you? But, you are perfectly right, it makes no difference.

Michael,

I would suggest that you are once again applying 21st C "feelings" to 19th C social problems. In the period anyone could pretty much take any name they wished--and they often did. Moreover, those who had lived a life like Kate had learned from an early age to use an alias with any authority figures. This was true of pawn brokers as well. Not only were the odds not an favor of most items ever being redeemed (unless the musical chairs scam of redeeming an item to repawn elsewhere was being played) but in many instances items being pawned were stolen--they used a phoney name as a matter of course.

Add to the mix that the Irish diaspora from the famine meant that Britain and North America were awash in Irish surnames (Kelly being among the most popular), throw in Sam's datum about the unbiquity of Mary as a Christian name and finally consider she'd lived for ages with a man named Kelly. That Mary Kelly was her alias of choice is no surprise. Indeed, the "Mary Jane Kelly" of Miller's Court might have chosen that name herself for much the same reason

And, to iteratde Glenn's notion--what in heck difference does it make unless you want to take a stroll in the fever swamps of conspiracy?

Don..

[Sam Flynn]

It might be even odds in terms of coincidence

There were approximately 1.7 million women named "Mary" living in England at the time - it was far and away the most popular name in the country. The next most popular was "Ann/Anne", with just over a million, closely followed by "Elizabeth". Trailing behind, but still reasonably common, was "Catherine/Katherine/Kate", with around 300,000. Bearing that in mind, I'd settle for "coincidence" anytime, Mike.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But again, Michael - and please forgive me for raising this question, because at this point I am very frustrated - even if they dId know each other: what on earth would it show?
What is the significance of it?
Am I really expected to believe that this have any validity for why they were killed or why they were chosen as victims?
Because for that reason, it wouldn't be enough for them knowing each other but also for the killer - in turn - to know them all!

So can anyone please tell me why this is a valid concpet at all, and why I am wasting my time with this?
Can't you see that this is irrelevant, Michael, and - quite frankly - a ridiculous idea?

All the best

Hi Mike,It's worth remembering that Kate gave an alias of "Mary Ann Kelly", which suggests that it was either a totally made up name (apart from her common-law surname), or that Kate had a different Mary Kelly in mind. Either way, this "Mary Ann" is unlikely to have been "our" Mary, given that a number of people knew her only as "Mary Jane", and that she was wont to call herself "Marie Jeannette" - as opposed to "Marianne".

Hi Sam,

On that last point Im quite sure that was a carryover from her fortnight abroad in Paris as what,...a courtesan? But you neglected to mention she was Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset St on the Pawnticket, dated a little more than 24 hours earlier. Its not an isolated instance with Hutt. Kate used the surname twice, and Jane Kelly was the first iteration, Mary Kelly was the second. She is murdered just after calling herself Mary Kelly.

Contextually, it becomes either one of those ironic and odd co-incidences of life, or an indication that she may have known of a Mary or Jane Kelly that lived off Dorset. Since that Mary Kelly does do the same "work" as Kate, it means that they would have been on occassion, working at night simultaeneously. They may have had mutual friends too.

Its no smoking gun Sam, but before its dimissed as coincidence, the probability of perhaps Kate knowing Mary even casually based on this should be assessed first. Since they share the same neck of the woods, the same occupation at night, and the same surname on occasions, its worth wondering about. It might be even odds in terms of coincidence, her choosing those names in particular, or her having heard of or met Mary Kelly off Dorset St at some point.

Best regards Gareth, as always.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Particularly when the next victim, is Mary Jane Kelly

It's worth remembering that Kate gave an alias of "Mary Ann Kelly", which suggests that it was either a totally made up name (apart from her common-law surname), or that Kate had a different Mary Kelly in mind. Either way, this "Mary Ann" is unlikely to have been "our" Mary, given that a number of people knew her only as "Mary Jane", and that she was wont to call herself "Marie Jeannette" - as opposed to "Marianne".

If memory serves me correctly wasn't Kate seeing (on and off at least) some fellow called Kelly? From that point of view it wouldn't, on the face of it, seem that surprising if she happened to give that as a surname. As for calling herself Mary...well..it was a common enough name, but I agree, a bit of a coincidence all things considered. However I do tend to veer towards it being a coincidence.

Hi John,

Catherine and John Kelly are not off and on really, they had been "together", or teamed, for some time at that point. I agree that her taking the surname Kelly isnt that odd based on their time together, but I would contest the idea that her using that and the given names of Mary and Jane, and a Dorset St address are as easily dismissed. Particularly when the next victim, is Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Millers Court off Dorset St.

Kate didnt need an alias to pawn the boots. She may have preferred to use one at the Police Station. Whatever her reasons for choosing those names, random or using variations of someone she knew of, it does appear on paper that the 4th and 5th Canonical were using the same name when they died. We dont know if Kate continued on to Mitre calling herself that, but we do know what she told Hutt.

A very odd coincidence, if just that.

[John Casey]

If memory serves me correctly wasn't Kate seeing (on and off at least) some fellow called Kelly? From that point of view it wouldn't, on the face of it, seem that surprising if she happened to give that as a surname. As for calling herself Mary...well..it was a common enough name, but I agree, a bit of a coincidence all things considered. However I do tend to veer towards it being a coincidence.

Hi Glenn, Mikey,

I am aware how prevalent the surname Kelly was...we can see it in just these 5 murder cases repeatedly.

What makes this choice of alias exceptional I believe is that Kate uesd it twice in 24 hours, the 2 aliases were variations of Mary Jane Kellys full given name,. and in one case using a Dorset St location, and the #6. It seems to me that she may have plucked it out of thin air once...but why twice...consecutively. And why would she need an alias for the pawn boots at all?

Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset, and Mary Kelly of Fashion St.

If one were to imagine this might indicate knowledge of Mary by Kate, one might also imagine that the number 6 was not entirely a random selection,..and that Fashion St might be used if someone knew Mary once had fashionable clothing, and the subject thought of her in that manner. From someone who is wearing all they own when going out, someone who had some fine dresses at one time might come to mind as "Fashionable".

Im saying to casually pluck imaginary names from thin air, it is very odd that she chose to do so twice in her last 24 hours, and the names she chose have so much in common with the next Canonical victims.

So many odd things are discarded as coincidental in these cases that one might think suggestive evidence of something odd isnt worth exploring. I would disagree with that.

In the same way that a section of a Left Kidney with Brights Disease sent as a "hoax" just happened to match Kates missing part.

My best regards Glenn, Mikey.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I suppose I should restructure what I was intending to say earlier....regarding Kates choice of aliases in her last 24 hours. I think it was more than an odd coincidence restrospectively....I believe it indicates that she knew of Mary Jane Kelly off Dorset.

...

There are provable connections, like Pearly and Annie apparently, but I think this is a case where there is some evidence to suggest that perhaps a C5 knew another C5.

I am sorry Michael, but I am with Mikey on this one.
To use common names like Mary and Kelly appears to have not been very unusual at all, and I don't see anything else than coincidences here.
As far as I know, there are no 'evidence that suggests that a C5 knew another C5'. Such evidence would consist of statements from - for example - Barnett stating that Mary knew Eddowes or from John kelly stating that Eddowes knew Annie Chapman. We don't have any such indications and no mention of it, nor are such implications mentioned in the police files. I don't hesitate to say that it is all conjuncture and supposition.

Again, it wouldn't be an impossible thought that some of them bumped into one another at some point at a pub or on the street, but I fail to see how this would have any impact on the motive of killer. So for me it's not an important issue. The victims were most likely chosen because they were avaliable and vulnerable at that time of night and on those particular nights the killer stalked the streets. He most likely had some kind of preferences but besides that I don't see anything else than randomly chosen women.

All the best

[mikey559]

Who was Mary Kelly?

I suppose I should restructure what I was intending to say earlier....regarding Kates choice of aliases in her last 24 hours. I think it was more than an odd coincidence restrospectively....I believe it indicates that she knew of Mary Jane Kelly off Dorset.

In the east end at that time, if you wanted an alias, you used Kelly. It was very, very common. If it were in any way unique, we would be able to find out more about the victim we all know as Mary Kelly. I don't think that Kates use of Kelly in any way points to her having known Mary Kelly, it shows she knew it was too common to lead back to her.

Just my humble opinion,

Mikey

[mikey559]

Did they know each other?

At one time I thought that living in such close proximity to each other, having the same drinking habits and being in the same profession, surely they must have known each other. Then over the years, I found out that there were 76,000 people living in the Whitechapel district in 1888. There were 1,200 known prostitutes in Whitechapel in that same year. As many as 300 people might pass through the doors of a single lodging house in one day. When you look at these figures, it becomes easy to see how they might have seen each other before and may even have lived in neighboring rooming houses, it doesn't mean they knew each other.

I don't know what I think anymore. Every day we learn more and more about the residents of Whitechapel and every day we find different reasons to change our minds about what we thought we knew.

Mikey

[j.r-ahde]

Hello DA!

There has been talks about Catherine living sometime in a shed near Mary Kelly.

But if I remember correctly, that wasn't very reliable piece of information.

The most possible option is, that they knew, which one was which and that's it!

All the best
Jukka

[detective abberline]

5 Victims

Hi all.

It's perfectly possible that all the victims knew each other. In the relatively small area of East London they roamed and the doss houses and pubs they frequented, they may well have met each other. However, that is a big "might'. There is no written or oral evidence that they ever knew each other. Stephen Knight started this idea and there has been no evidence in the past 30 years to truthfully back up his ideas.

Cheers