Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[Lewis C]

I don't want to be that guy.... but this thread which is supposed be on who was killed by Jack appears to have morphed into a detailed analysis of Druitt's cricket matches and their impact on his viability as a suspect. While this is interesting in it's own right, this discussion belongs elsewhere.... perhaps as its own dedicated topic.

True, and in the Druitt sub-forum, there are 3 different threads about some aspect of Druitt and cricket, on the first 3 pages alone of that forum.

[Fiver]

Hi c.d

The game was only discovered by a researcher called Joanna (I don’t know her second name) and was posted on this thread on JtRForums in 2022.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/persons-of-interest-or-actual-suspects/m-j-druitt/588052-proof-of-innocence#post588052

Thanks for the link. If Druitt played in Blandford, Dorset on 30 August and in Canford, Dorset on 1 September, then it's unlikely he did the round trip to Whitechapel in between.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the link. If Druitt played in Blandford, Dorset on 30 August and in Canford, Dorset on 1 September, then it's unlikely he did the round trip to Whitechapel in between.

Why is that?

[John Wheat]

I think most would think the C5 with the possible exception of Liz Stride were murdered by Jack. The argument that Mary Jane Kelly was murdered by someone else for instance for me just doesn't hold water. Tabram may or may not have been murdered by Jack. The Pinchin Street Torso was in all likelihood murdered by The Torso Killer as were the other Torso victims.

[Fiver]

Why is that?

How long would it have taken Druitt to travel from Blandford, Dorset to Whitechapel and then to Canford, Dorset?

[Herlock Sholmes]

How long would it have taken Druitt to travel from Blandford, Dorset to Whitechapel and then to Canford, Dorset?

I can’t recall the exact times Fiver but from the research that was done it wouldn’t have been a problem for him to have got back to London easily in time. Of course we don’t know the exact times that the game ended and it certainly doesn’t mean that he did go to London but the train journey would have been no obstacle.

Again, I can’t recall the details but we have always assumed (from DJ Leighton’s book) that Druitt had an alibi for the Tabram murder but I believe that Roger found out that this wasn’t the case. Without me reading all through the JtRForums thread it would need Roger to give the details,

[Fiver]

I can’t recall the exact times Fiver but from the research that was done it wouldn’t have been a problem for him to have got back to London easily in time. Of course we don’t know the exact times that the game ended and it certainly doesn’t mean that he did go to London but the train journey would have been no obstacle.

I understand that there were enough hours between matches. Using Google maps and selecting Transit, it looks like the round trip would take about 7 hours today, not counting time for finding a victim, washing up, and changing clothes. Does that seem like a fair estimate of the time involved for Druitt to have murdered Nichols?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I understand that there were enough hours between matches. Using Google maps and selecting Transit, it looks like the round trip would take about 7 hours today, not counting time for finding a victim, washing up, and changing clothes. Does that seem like a fair estimate of the time involved for Druitt to have murdered Nichols?

If the game was called off at 2.00 for eg. even a 7 hour journey would have got him into London for 10.00. Over 5 hours before the murder.

[Fiver]

If the game was called off at 2.00 for eg. even a 7 hour journey would have got him into London for 10.00. Over 5 hours before the murder.

As I said, I understand that there were enough hours between matches for Druitt to get to the Nichols murder site and return. That is not my question.

Using Google maps and selecting Transit, it looks like the round trip would take about 7 hours today, not counting time for finding a victim, washing up, and changing clothes. Does that seem like a fair estimate of the time involved for Druitt to have murdered Nichols?

Or would the differences in public transportation between 1888 and now have resulted in a significantly different turnaround time than 7 hours?

[Herlock Sholmes]

As I said, I understand that there were enough hours between matches for Druitt to get to the Nichols murder site and return. That is not my question.

Using Google maps and selecting Transit, it looks like the round trip would take about 7 hours today, not counting time for finding a victim, washing up, and changing clothes. Does that seem like a fair estimate of the time involved for Druitt to have murdered Nichols?

Or would the differences in public transportation between 1888 and now have resulted in a significantly different turnaround time than 7 hours?

I just looked quickly and saw one timetable posted by Roger. By catching a train at 4.55pm, then changing at Bournemouth he would have got to Waterloo at 11.41pm. I believe that there was a train a couple of hours earlier which took a different route.

Whether anyone thinks it likely or not (which I must admit I find a little strange when they do) we simply cannot eliminate Druitt on cricket match evidence Fiver. If someone found evidence that proved that Druitt couldn’t have been at one of the murder sites I’d say “oh, ok…we can eliminate him and move on.” The issue is though, and I’m not accusing you of this, but some people are far more desperate to eliminate him that others are to promote him. The subject of Druitt tends cause the hackles to rise in some quarters. All that I’ve ever really said is, yes, I tend to favour him of the named suspects, and yet we seen people call me “an ardent Druittist” no matter how many times I’ve wasted time explaining my position. I certainly agree with Roger though that if we rush to dump Druitt then surely we are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water? The Druitt case is loaded with possibles and intriguing maybes. Certainly not concrete evidence but, as I say, intriguing. What if we just found out that one of them was true? Isn’t it better to remain open to possibilities?

I try to be cautious but one aspect of this has never washed with me and it’s something that tends to be thrown around so casually some treat it almost as a fact. It’s the idea that Macnaghten just picked Druitt out of thin air for his ‘better than Cutbush’ list because he died after Kelly. I’m firmer in my opinion that this wasn’t the case than I am in my opinion of how many victims there were or whether the killer wrote the GSG. I firmly believe that Macnaghten felt that he had a valid reason for naming Druitt - whether that reason was correct or not is another matter.

[Paddy Goose]

Whether anyone thinks it likely or not (which I must admit I find a little strange when they do) we simply cannot eliminate Druitt on cricket match evidence...

I am one of those. I don't think Montague Druitt was in London and did not commit the murder of Polly Nichols. Why did he come to London late Thursday night, and go back in time for his next match in Dorset Saturday? Was it school business on a Friday? Did he have legal work that had to be attended to on that Friday? That is, after he made his way to Whitechapel and murdered a stranger. No one has ever given a reason why. It's the end of summer. He's in Dorset, playing cricket. Again, it's my opinion he didn't murder Nichols. It that is strange to you so be it.

Think of it a different way, Herlock. Start from the beginning. MacNaghten named Ostrog but we can rule him out because he was in prison in France. He named "Kosminski" and yes there were in fact several Kosminskis in London at that time the best we know. And proximity is also the starting point for MJ Druitt. He was in London at the time. But no, he wasn't in London at the time of Nichols murder, was he? Who knew about his cricket matches on those days bookending the Nichols murder? His family? Macnaghten? All the other "sources" which may make veiled reference to him. The Druitt suspect theory as we know badly needs a restart. Thinks about the Druitt suspect books you've read. Do any of them acknowledge his cricket playing on those days? Do any of them show a path around that? Not that I know of.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am one of those. I don't think Montague Druitt was in London and did not commit the murder of Polly Nichols. Why did he come to London late Thursday night, and go back in time for his next match in Dorset Saturday? Was it school business on a Friday? Did he have legal work that had to be attended to on that Friday? That is, after he made his way to Whitechapel and murdered a stranger. No one has ever given a reason why. It's the end of summer. He's in Dorset, playing cricket. Again, it's my opinion he didn't murder Nichols. It that is strange to you so be it.

I don’t think it strange that someone doesn’t think Druitt a good suspect Paddy; that’s just an individuals assessment. The only thing that I find a little strange is why we would think it unlikely that a man might catch a train? Put in terms of the modern day - say that you’re a Barrister and every year you go home to Dorset for a six week holiday to hang out with your family and turn out for the local cricket team for a game or two but before you leave someone at the Chambers says that he has to go meet a client a week into your planned holiday. The meeting is on the day after a cricket match that you’ve told your friends that you’d play in. Would you delay the whole holiday, missing the game and letting your friends down, or would you think “I’ll go to Dorset, play cricket and catch the early train for London next morning?” Surely there’s nothing unlikely about that? Then, as the game was cut short, you might think “I’ll catch the train this afternoon and stay overnight rather than getting the early train.”

Another point is that IF Druitt was the ripper, and yes it’s a huge IF, then we are discussing a serial killer. They don’t always act in a way that appears logical.

Think of it a different way, Herlock. Start from the beginning. MacNaghten named Ostrog but we can rule him out because he was in prison in France. He named "Kosminski" and yes there were in fact several Kosminskis in London at that time the best we know. And proximity is also the starting point for MJ Druitt. He was in London at the time. But no, he wasn't in London at the time of Nichols murder, was he? Who knew about his cricket matches on those days bookending the Nichols murder? His family? Macnaghten? All the other "sources" which may make veiled reference to him. The Druitt suspect theory as we know badly needs a restart. Thinks about the Druitt suspect books you've read. Do any of them acknowledge his cricket playing on those days? Do any of them show a path around that? Not that I know of.

But there is a path around the cricket match. He could have got on a train and gone to London.

Sir Melville Macnaghten had virtually limitless resources at his disposal. Police records, prison records, asylum records. He picks a ‘foreign lunatic’ (hardly likely to sue had his name leaked out) a foreign criminal (hardly likely to sue had his name leaked out) and then a highly respectable Barrister, Schoolteacher, Public Schoolboy, cricketer with no history of criminality or violence (with a solicitor for a brother and I highly respected family name) . The question that I think doesn’t get asked enough is “why the hell did he pick Druitt?” For a start many at the time, including his old mentor Monro, believed that Mackenzie was a victim…yet Macnaghten named Druitt and was adamant that the ripper only killed five. It would surely have been simplicity itself for him to have found some criminal or lunatic who had died after Mackenzie and framed him. “I was approached by a friend of his who said that he saw him on the morning of the Chapman murder with blood on his shirt” etc. Macnaghten would have had his pick.

A question might be - why didn’t the police in 1894, assuming that there would be no more ripper murders, simply throw Cutbush under the bus and take the credit for incarcerating the ripper? Mac could have said “yes, I think that this is our man but six years after the murders we just don't have the evidence to charge him. He’ll die in Broadmoor though.”

I genuinely have issue at all with anyone who doesn’t think Druitt a good suspect Paddy. But, like most suspects we don’t have the actual evidence to dismiss him outright so it’s just down to individual opinion. You think he’s a poor suspect and that’s fine. I swear though that over on JtRForums there were a few that were almost ready to throw a party when they thought that they might be able to dump Druitt. I swear I could hear sobbing when it turned out ghat they couldn’t. And it’s that attitude that I’ve never understand. I hope that research continues on Druitt. It might lead nowhere but who knows….one day we might find a letter by George Valentine saying “I had to sack Druitt because it was found that he’d been consorting with prostitutes in Whitechapel.”