Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[Fiver]

Because you say so??

Doctors who examined the victim's remains were divided on whether the Ripper had any knowledge of anatomy, let alone more knowledge than a butcher's.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Lewis,

Thanks for pointing me to Kelly & Deeming. Having now read up a little bit about both Kelly & Deeming, I can say that their murders didn't show, as far as I can tell, any 'post-mortem interest' in their victims. Deeming seems closer to what the Ripper did, as he, at least, cut the throats of his victims. I have to say I'm not much of a 'suspect man'. At one time, I thought Hutchinson might have been the Ripper, but I abandoned that idea years ago and now I think it may have been someone like Francis Thomson, but I'm not married to the idea.

Cheers,
Frank

When Kelly fashioned a bespoke key to escape confinement, he went on the run.

During that period he got a job at an undertakers.

He worked with the recently deceased every working day.


Could that be considered an interest in post-mortem?

[andy1867]

I went for C6...but sort of took my time with Tabram and Stride...tabram because of the penknife stab wounds and the bayonet thrust..and obviously you relate a bayonet to a soldier, asnd a soldier was involved in the case..Stride, simply because he was disturbed, and I wonder if someone who had obviously just "nearly" been caught wouldn't have simply thought... "Phew that was close...call it a day (night)

[Fernglas]

Doctors who examined the victim's remains were divided on whether the Ripper had any knowledge of anatomy, let alone more knowledge than a butcher's.

I do not know how often I read/heard this excuse when it comes to pinning facts instead of stories on the Ripper!
The only doctors who were divided on the skill level of the Ripper are the old ones, who possessed very variable medical skill sets of their own due to the field of medicine was in rapid flux back then. Give the reports of the victims and murders to any modern doctor and they will invariably say that the Ripper had substantial medical/surgical skills and knowledge. Many will also comment on the Ripper´s speed and remarkable precision under stress and adverse conditions.

Luckily for us today Doctor Brown from the City Police made a very matter of fact report with some remarks from his experiences in medicine and law enforcement. His post mortem report enables even those who were not there to see what the Ripper did and how he did it. You can talk and show the reports to any person who once held a scalpell to learn surgery, no matter if they became surgeons or stopped early, and they will tell you that Mitre Square is the work of someone with substantial medical/surgical knowledge and skill, esp. under the adverse circumstances in the dark, crouching and kneeling on the ground.

Dr. Bond was clearly shocked by what he found at the crime scene in Miller´s Court and has most probably led to him stating that the Ripper had no medical skills at all. Because his own report gives the lie to his statement. While there are wounds and moves reported which were clearly done for nefarious purposes and sate the sadism and mental disturbances of JtR, the descriptions of the other handiwork show skills.
One example, the easiest (and most probably the only one they can think off) way for an amateur or quack trying to get out the heart, is cutting it out complete with the Herzbeutel (pericardium) or most of it depending on how it is cut, still surrounding it.
It does the job, certainly, but it is NOT what the Ripper did. THe sick F... made a pericardium fenestration and took it out. This is neither the first nor second thought an amateur, drunk, average person or madman will have on how to get the heart out.

[John Wheat]

What I and others are suggesting is that what has been recorded in the autopsy of Eddowes reflects muscle memory skills developed in the dissection room to be repeatable while crouching or kneeling beside the victim in the dark. Definitely not a skill set possessed by drunken sawdust carriers.

And I think your wrong. Many others agree with me too. It is by no means an established fact that the Ripper had surgeon level skills.

[Fiver]

I do not know how often I read/heard this excuse when it comes to pinning facts instead of stories on the Ripper!
The only doctors who were divided on the skill level of the Ripper are the old ones, who possessed very variable medical skill sets of their own due to the field of medicine was in rapid flux back then.

Your statement is incorrect. Here are the actual opinions of the medical types.

Dr Llewellyn - “some rough anatomical knowledge”

Coroner Baxter - "considerable anatomical skill and knowledge”

Dr Phillips - "seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.”

Dr Sequeira - "not possessed of any great anatomical skill"

Dr Brown - “a great deal of knowledge”

Dr Saunders did not think the killer showed anatomical skill.

Dr Bond - "no scientific nor anatomical knowledge" IIRC, Thomas Bond read the reports in the victims, he did not examine the bodies.

So the assessments of skill are:
None - Bond, Saunders
Some - Lllewellyn, Sequeira
A lot - Baxter, Brown, Phillips

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

Thanks for pointing me to Kelly & Deeming. Having now read up a little bit about both Kelly & Deeming, I can say that their murders didn't show, as far as I can tell, any 'post-mortem interest' in their victims. Deeming seems closer to what the Ripper did, as he, at least, cut the throats of his victims. I have to say I'm not much of a 'suspect man'. At one time, I thought Hutchinson might have been the Ripper, but I abandoned that idea years ago and now I think it may have been someone like Francis Thomson, but I'm not married to the idea.

Cheers,
Frank

You're welcome, Frank. Another similarity that Deeming had to the Ripper is that he sometimes strangled. After reading your response, it occurred to me that there is one possible difference between Chapman and the other two: I think there's more reason to believe that Chapman got pleasure from his victim's suffering than Kelly or Deeming did. However, even if that's true, I suppose different conclusions can be drawn from it.

I still think Hutchinson is a decent suspect, though there are others I prefer. I think that he's the best of the witness suspects, but that's not a very high bar.

[Lewis C]

I went for C6...but sort of took my time with Tabram and Stride...tabram because of the penknife stab wounds and the bayonet thrust..and obviously you relate a bayonet to a soldier, asnd a soldier was involved in the case..Stride, simply because he was disturbed, and I wonder if someone who had obviously just "nearly" been caught wouldn't have simply thought... "Phew that was close...call it a day (night)

Hi Andy,

I maintain that he could have been interrupted at the Stride murder without almost being caught. He could have heard a noise that scared him off, or he could have realized that someone could be coming out the door any moment, so he'd better leave before that happened.

[Fernglas]

Your statement is incorrect. Here are the actual opinions of the medical types.

Dr Llewellyn - “some rough anatomical knowledge”

Coroner Baxter - "considerable anatomical skill and knowledge”

Dr Phillips - "seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.”

Dr Sequeira - "not possessed of any great anatomical skill"

Dr Brown - “a great deal of knowledge”

Dr Saunders did not think the killer showed anatomical skill.

Dr Bond - "no scientific nor anatomical knowledge" IIRC, Thomas Bond read the reports in the victims, he did not examine the bodies.

So the assessments of skill are:
None - Bond, Saunders
Some - Lllewellyn, Sequeira
A lot - Baxter, Brown, Phillips

"Guten Morgen!" (Good Morning, but in this form meant to describe you missing something pretty obvious, here the topic)

I wrote that the old doctors were of different opinions due to their very variable knowledge levels in a time medicine was in rapid flux and that modern(!) ones from today will tell you that the Ripper had skill!
And what do you do? You requote the old doctors! Besides, look at your own count, even among the old doctors a majority of 5:2 speak of the Ripper possessing some to considerable medical skills.
In addition, I wrote several times about the Eddowes murder and how it blatantly shows some medical knowledge and skill, because otherwise this murder could never have happened like it did. In my last post I included stuff from the Kelly murder as evidence. I assure you doing a pericardium fenestration is NOT what will come to an amateur "just so".

Cheers

[Doctored Whatsit]

"Guten Morgen!" (Good Morning, but in this form meant to describe you missing something pretty obvious, here the topic)

Besides, look at your own count, even among the old doctors a majority of 5:2 speak of the Ripper possessing some to considerable medical skills.

Cheers

Nope, none of the doctors spoke of any medical skill whatever. They talked about anatomical knowledge and skill, and someone accustomed to cutting up animals was given as an example, and also someone accustomed to removing innards with one sweep of a knife. These are deliberate pointers to butcher/slaughterers and not medically trained people.

[GBinOz]

Those are the same article posted in two different places.

I stand corrected.

[Filby]

I voted for the C6 scenario. Impossible not to imagine that the abdominal mutilations of Tabram weren't consistent with the beginnings of an inexperienced serial killer.

[andy1867]

Hi Andy,

I maintain that he could have been interrupted at the Stride murder without almost being caught. He could have heard a noise that scared him off, or he could have realized that someone could be coming out the door any moment, so he'd better leave before that happened.

It was more me wondering if he had a total bloodlust , the one that played out later in Millers Court and simply couldn't help himself, but yes I do get your point