Who was killed by Jack the Ripper?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a few points. Stride was killed inside a stable gate. Nichols was killed outside an identical stable gate. Stride was quietly subdued to unconsciousness, laid down, and killed with a single cut to the throat. Her death occurred approximately 35 minutes before that of Kate Eddowes. Both happened to have occurred at an earlier hour than other Ripper crimes. Both occurred just outside the reach of where the police were saturating the streets. The victimology of Stride and Eddowes is identical, down to both women living on the same street. If Stride were a copycat murder we might expect it to have been more awkward and much sloppier, with signs of a struggle. There were no such signs. Her killer was extraordinarily brazen and confident. One of the more popular sayings among homicide detectives is 'there are no coincidences in murder'. Of course, no such rule can be all encompassing, but there's no compelling reason here to suggest such a fantastic coincidence. Even down to the cachous in Stride's hand and the thimble just off Eddowes' hand, the circumstances are too similar for the crimes not to be connected.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

There are certainly similarities to consider. The ones that I personally feel are most significant are the victimology and the time in relation to the Eddowes murder while I’m less convinced by the others that you mention although I accept them as facts of course. Nichols was killed outside a closed gate while Stride was killed inside an open one. Wouldn’t most throat cuttings involve just one cut? I wouldn’t argue with you though that Stride could have been killed by the ripper. I’ll suggest two things, rather than just the previous one that I mentioned.

1) We have a killer that avoids being caught and while an element of good fortune might well have helped I would find it difficult to accept that the killer went around careless of his own safety just relying on luck to keep him out of the cells. In this killer’s case we have a location at the side of the club where even the neighbours can hear the customers upstairs singing and and just a very few feet from the murder spot is a partially open door with light spilling out. The killer would have been aware of the time (at least approximately) and that this was after pub closing time so he would have been aware of the very real possibility of punters exiting the door or even exiting to use the outside loo. And then a few feet the other way is an open gateway onto the pavement. Anyone (even a Constable) could have walked past and seen him in the act of mutilation. At which point he’s trapped.

2) It does seem likeliest (though not a proven certainty) that Stride was killed by the man that she was seen arguing with in the gateway at around 12.45 (BS man) If this was the case then it does seem a huge and unnecessary risk for him to have killed her after attracting the attention of two complete strangers.

Apologies for repeating stuff that you’re well aware of Tom. You could certainly be right that Stride was a ripper victim (and for years I was of the same opinion) but i favour that she wasn’t. Another one of those mysteries of the case that will never be proven either way. Your opinion is certainly the majority one though.

[The Rookie Detective]

Just a few points. Stride was killed inside a stable gate. Nichols was killed outside an identical stable gate. Stride was quietly subdued to unconsciousness, laid down, and killed with a single cut to the throat. Her death occurred approximately 35 minutes before that of Kate Eddowes. Both happened to have occurred at an earlier hour than other Ripper crimes. Both occurred just outside the reach of where the police were saturating the streets. The victimology of Stride and Eddowes is identical, down to both women living on the same street. If Stride were a copycat murder we might expect it to have been more awkward and much sloppier, with signs of a struggle. There were no such signs. Her killer was extraordinarily brazen and confident. One of the more popular sayings among homicide detectives is 'there are no coincidences in murder'. Of course, no such rule can be all encompassing, but there's no compelling reason here to suggest such a fantastic coincidence. Even down to the cachous in Stride's hand and the thimble just off Eddowes' hand, the circumstances are too similar for the crimes not to be connected.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Exquisitely put Tom.

[Fernglas]

hi fern
i totally agree with your point about the unlikely chance that two throat cutting prostitute killers were operating at basically the same time and place. and the final straw for me is that most of the reliable witnesses at both the stride and eddowes murders all describe a suspect who was wearing a peaked cap. the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and after being interupted before he could finish with stride he left and went on to find eddowes. and yes he wrote the gsg, maybe because he was pissed off from being interrupted by a bunch of jews that night.

Hi Abby and thank you,
I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street. The second reason for the GSG I mentioned in a post to Herlock. JtR extracting Kati´s kidney the way he did, showed a skill level of him he did not want to show and he recognised it. So he mutilated KE more than usual (easy since he also had rising aggression), mutilations and gore always help distracting the public, but as we can see from the police records, the most severe mutilations were made after(!) he extracted the kidney. Doc Brown from the City Police mentioned that and that he could retrace the Ripper´s steps and implied doctors (of that era) would have done so very similarly.

As I wrote in an earlier post, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery. A skilled person can conceal it´s skill level by making deliberately bad moves now and then, a person without skill cannot make enough good moves to conceal it´s lack of skill. The Mitre Square kidney extraction under miserable circumstances shows too much skill for it to be done by someone just cutting about. Put yourself in JtR´s shoes for a moment: could you have done this extraction in near darkness, on your knees and under time pressure? No chance in hell, unless you have some prior knowledge of what you want to do.
The Ripper does not need to have been a doctor, but however he gained his knowledge, Jack possessed an anatomical/medical knowledge well above the norm for both today and even more so 1888.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Abby and thank you,
I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street. The second reason for the GSG I mentioned in a post to Herlock. JtR extracting Kati´s kidney the way he did, showed a skill level of him he did not want to show and he recognised it. So he mutilated KE more than usual (easy since he also had rising aggression), mutilations and gore always help distracting the public, but as we can see from the police records, the most severe mutilations were made after(!) he extracted the kidney. Doc Brown from the City Police mentioned that and that he could retrace the Ripper´s steps and implied doctors (of that era) would have done so very similarly.

As I wrote in an earlier post, you cannot fake yourself through a kidney surgery. A skilled person can conceal it´s skill level by making deliberately bad moves now and then, a person without skill cannot make enough good moves to conceal it´s lack of skill. The Mitre Square kidney extraction under miserable circumstances shows too much skill for it to be done by someone just cutting about. Put yourself in JtR´s shoes for a moment: could you have done this extraction in near darkness, on your knees and under time pressure? No chance in hell, unless you have some prior knowledge of what you want to do.
The Ripper does not need to have been a doctor, but however he gained his knowledge, Jack possessed an anatomical/medical knowledge well above the norm for both today and even more so 1888.

It's clear that at the very least; Jack had done it all before.

It was by no means his first rodeo when it came to the wounds he inflicted on Eddowes.

It not, then it would be the equivalent of a man trying to sucessfully juggle 3 sharp knives in the dark...on his very first attempt at juggling...and him not cutting himself or dropping a blade.

To say that the Ripper had no anatomical knowledge is baffling.

Having anatomical knowledge doesn't mean you have to be a person of surgical knowledge.

Knowing where things are in the body is one thing, and knowing how use a knife skillfully is another.

But when you combine those 2 principles, it seems certain that the Ripper must have had some idea and understanding of what he was doing.

[John Wheat]

It's clear that at the very least; Jack had done it all before.

It was by no means his first rodeo when it came to the wounds he inflicted on Eddowes.

It not, then it would be the equivalent of a man trying to sucessfully juggle 3 sharp knives in the dark...on his very first attempt at juggling...and him not cutting himself or dropping a blade.

To say that the Ripper had no anatomical knowledge is baffling.

Having anatomical knowledge doesn't mean you have to be a person of surgical knowledge.

Knowing where things are in the body is one thing, and knowing how use a knife skillfully is another.

But when you combine those 2 principles, it seems certain that the Ripper must have had some idea and understanding of what he was doing.

I made the point on the other thread that we don't have a detailed employment history for most suspects. So should suspects be discounted because we don't know that they had anatomical knowledge?

[c.d.]

I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street.

Just as a thought experiment: If there had been no double event and therefore no apron would we still view the GSG in the same light? Would it be at all reasonable to read it and possibly conclude that it was just some Jewish person bitching about how Jews are always being blamed for everything?

c.d

[c.d.]

I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street.

Caught by whom?

c.d.

[Fernglas]

I made the point on the other thread that we don't have a detailed employment history for most suspects. So should suspects be discounted because we don't know that they had anatomical knowledge?

Some suspects can be discounted. Those who had no anatomical and lacking area knowledge, e.g. sailors like Vogelma and other joke suspects. We do not need a complete life path of some suspects. Gaining anatomical knowledge in 1888 was several grades more difficult than today.
The only ways to gain it was through several work fields like e.g. doctors, butchers, medics, some teachers and higher education and even there not all paths.

There are some suspects which never worked in certain professions (or at least not long enough to gain enough anatomy) nor had any chance of higher learning like e.g. Kelly, Fogelma or Feigenbaum.

On the other hand, some suspects like Klosowski are prime suspects among other things not only because he is a proven serial killer (which is often underestimated, serial killers, thank god, are rare) but he also had a medical education and was a learned surgeon! We should remember that Abberline many years later admitted in a roundabout way that those police officers close to the case never believed JtR to be some drunk slasher, but an experienced surgeon(!). We should not dismiss that it clicked for Inspektor Abberline once he learned more about Klosowski. Abberline had been deep in the case and while back in the day the police had less knowledge, organisation and possibilities, the ideas, theories, instincts and gut feeling of an experienced investigator who worked on a case should not be taken lightly.

[Fernglas]

I made the point on the other thread that we don't have a detailed employment history for most suspects. So should suspects be discounted because we don't know that they had anatomical knowledge?

Some suspects can be discounted. Those who had no anatomical and lacking area knowledge, e.g. sailors like Vogelma and other joke suspects. We do not need a complete life path of some suspects. Gaining anatomical knowledge in 1888 was several grades more difficult than today.
The only ways to gain it was through several work fields like e.g. doctors, butchers, medics, some teachers and higher education and even there not all paths.

There are some suspects which never worked in certain professions (or at least not long enough to gain enough anatomy) nor had any chance of higher learning like e.g. Kelly, Fogelma or Feigenbaum.

On the other hand, some suspects like Klosowski are prime suspects among other things not only because he is a proven serial killer (which is often underestimated, serial killers, thank god, are rare) but he also had a medical education and was a learned surgeon! We should remember that Abberline many years later admitted in a roundabout way that those police officers close to the case never believed JtR to be some drunk slasher, but an experienced surgeon(!). We should not dismiss that it clicked for Inspektor Abberline once he learned more about Klosowski. Abberline had been deep in the case and while back in the day the police had less knowledge, organisation and possibilities, the ideas, theories, instincts and gut feeling of an experienced investigator who worked on a case should not be taken lightly.

[John Wheat]

Some suspects can be discounted. Those who had no anatomical and lacking area knowledge, e.g. sailors like Vogelma and other joke suspects. We do not need a complete life path of some suspects. Gaining anatomical knowledge in 1888 was several grades more difficult than today.
The only ways to gain it was through several work fields like e.g. doctors, butchers, medics, some teachers and higher education and even there not all paths.

There are some suspects which never worked in certain professions (or at least not long enough to gain enough anatomy) nor had any chance of higher learning like e.g. Kelly, Fogelma or Feigenbaum.

On the other hand, some suspects like Klosowski are prime suspects among other things not only because he is a proven serial killer (which is often underestimated, serial killers, thank god, are rare) but he also had a medical education and was a learned surgeon! We should remember that Abberline many years later admitted in a roundabout way that those police officers close to the case never believed JtR to be some drunk slasher, but an experienced surgeon(!). We should not dismiss that it clicked for Inspektor Abberline once he learned more about Klosowski. Abberline had been deep in the case and while back in the day the police had less knowledge, organisation and possibilities, the ideas, theories, instincts and gut feeling of an experienced investigator who worked on a case should not be taken lightly.

With Klosowski it's unlikely he could go from doing what Jack did to becoming a poisoner.

[Lewis C]

I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street.

Just as a thought experiment: If there had been no double event and therefore no apron would we still view the GSG in the same light? Would it be at all reasonable to read it and possibly conclude that it was just some Jewish person bitching about how Jews are always being blamed for everything?

c.d

Hi c.d.,

Yes, I think that that would be a reasonable interpretation. Or it could have been someone complaining that Jews get away with everything.

Caught by whom?

I think he was probably interrupted, but not necessarily almost caught. It could be that what interrupted him was that it dawned on him that it was a poor place to mutilate. Or maybe he heard some noise that spooked him.

[Fernglas]

With Klosowski it's unlikely he could go from doing what Jack did to becoming a poisoner.

I know the direction of argument you make, but it is a widespread fallacy that serial killers are unable to change methods. That was state of knowledge in the early days of criminal science on serial killers, but murderers like Keyes, Bundy, Kürten or a serial killer from France, whose name I do not remember off the cuff, make it clear that serial killers can change methods, sometimes drastically. Israel Keyes is the "poster boy" for a killer who killed in a lot of different ways and was only captured through chance and great luck. At least ten of his murders could only be placed with him due to his confessions with offenders knowledge.
A police officer said most of his murders they would never have solved otherwise, because they were so different from each other. Keyes prepared for each murder with care, varied his methods massively, placed lots of faked evidence, made sure there were no known connections between the victims, planned exactly, but was not fixed on a victim. If someone better "fitting" crossed his path, he/she became the victim instead the "preplanned" person.
As said, only pure chance and great luck saw him caught.
Keyes is an extreme example of a preplaner, but he is not the only serial killer able to change methods as needed. For our case, killing poor prostitutes without much family in the near lawless slum 1888 Whitechapel was, is a different thing from killing middle class (or higher) wives, who have family and social surroundings who might get suspicious quite fast.

[Lewis C]

With Klosowski it's unlikely he could go from doing what Jack did to becoming a poisoner.

Hi John,

When people argue against Klosowski as a Ripper, I rarely if ever hear any other reason besides this one. It's a fair argument, but if that's the only problem, when one also considers that he is known to have had medical knowledge (which the Ripper might not have had to have, but it wouldn't have hurt), he was Abberline's top suspect, he lived in the area at the time, is a known serial killer of women, and one of his wives said she once found a knife under his pillow, I think that on balance, there are very few better suspects in the case than him.

[Fernglas]

I see the Double Event occuring very similar to your theory. The GSG I see two reasons for. One is yours, the Ripper was certainly pissed being interrupted and nearly caught at Berner Street.

Just as a thought experiment: If there had been no double event and therefore no apron would we still view the GSG in the same light? Would it be at all reasonable to read it and possibly conclude that it was just some Jewish person bitching about how Jews are always being blamed for everything?

c.d

Hi c.d.!
While double negation works differently in my native German (In German a double negation means "yes", not a "stronger no" like in English), I think the person which wrote the GSG could have meant making a slur at Jews. But that is not the problem here. No matter it´s meaning the GSG was unusual enough among the tons of graffiti "beautifying" Whitechapel that the police got involved. Exactly what the Ripper wanted, to obfuscate his skills he showed in Mitre Square by misdirection.
I am sure the GSG existed only because the double event happened, if we posit your thought play, the GSG would not exist without JtR killing twice that evening. The graffiti with the apron piece below is simply too blatant a connection. On his flight home the Ripper must have passed dozens of graffiti showing "strong opinions", he could have chosen anyone of those to drop the apron.
But JtR needed a strong misdirection towards other suspects. so he penned the GSG.