Throat Cuts

[Wickerman]

Hello.

I noticed this exchange about the cry of “murder” and would just like to add that people being attacked did, in fact, shout out the word “murder”.

They did, the newspapers have several accounts, often the reason had nothing to do with a murder.
A mugging, one case of burglary, another just a startled woman....it was just a common cry for help.

In this case though it is hard to separate the fact we hear the cry of 'murder', and a murder did in fact take place.
Any attempt to separate the two will mostly fall on deaf ears.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello.

I noticed this exchange about the cry of “murder” and would just like to add that people being attacked did, in fact, shout out the word “murder”.

I have looked and it is not difficult to find examples of this.
1881:

1883:

1887:

1890:

This could be useful.

Can you provide the source of this information.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The knife used on Annie was not sharp

I think this is unlikely, Jon. The coroner/Dr Phillips exchange is this:

Dr. Phillips: Very well. I will give you the results of my post-mortem examination. Witness then detailed the terrible wounds which had been inflicted upon the woman, and described the parts of the body which the perpetrator of the murder had carried away with him. He added: I am of opinion that the length of the weapon with which the incisions were inflicted was at least five to six inches in length - probably more - and must have been very sharp.

Dr Phillips based his opinion of how sharp the knife was, i.e. very sharp, not on the throat wound but on the mutilations and removal of body parts.

It follows that there is another reason for a jagged cut to Annie's throat. Based on modern day pathologists' views on the nature of a cut from behind versus a cut from in front, I'd say the jagged incision on Annie's throat was due to Jack's position, which was from the front.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I do agree that the client was on the bed with her, but he can't do much lying down.

What about Mary is asleep, Jack slowly moves the knife into position, and then pulls Mary's head back to cut her throat.

[Kattrup]

This could be useful.

Can you provide the source of this information.

Sure. It's Old Bailey cases.

This is a search of cases 1880-1900 where the phrase "screamed murder" occurs. There are 28.

Likewise, you can search for "cried out murder" or "called out murder" or "shouted murder" or other combinations. The results clearly show that people used the actual word "murder" when crying for help in violent situations.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Sure. It's Old Bailey cases.

This is a search of cases 1880-1900 where the phrase "screamed murder" occurs. There are 28.

Likewise, you can search for "cried out murder" or "called out murder" or "shouted murder" or other combinations. The results clearly show that people used the actual word "murder" when crying for help in violent situations.

Aye, good post, Kattrup.

I reckon this one in particular proves the point, as both a witness and a victim confirm the shout of 'murder'

ALICE SEYMOUR . I saw he had this knife in his hand; he kissed it—he took me as if he was going to get hold of me, and he tore my boa to get to my throat; and as he took up the knife I caught hold of the blade and screamed "Murder!"

MARY ELIZABETH CLEAVER . I live at 65, Newman Street, and am landlady of that house—the prisoner was my lodger; he had had a second floor room since New Year's Day—about twenty minutes to two on 22nd February I was on the ground floor, and I heard him passing up to his room; I only heard his step, no other—about five minutes after I heard cries of murder

Glad to be proved wrong, and shouts of 'murder' did actually happen when a victim was attacked!

[Kattrup]

I reckon this one in particular proves the point, as both a witness and a victim confirm the shout of 'murder'

ALICE SEYMOUR . I saw he had this knife in his hand; he kissed it—he took me as if he was going to get hold of me, and he tore my boa to get to my throat; and as he took up the knife I caught hold of the blade and screamed "Murder!"

MARY ELIZABETH CLEAVER . I live at 65, Newman Street, and am landlady of that house—the prisoner was my lodger; he had had a second floor room since New Year's Day—about twenty minutes to two on 22nd February I was on the ground floor, and I heard him passing up to his room; I only heard his step, no other—about five minutes after I heard cries of murder

Glad to be proved wrong, and shouts of 'murder' did actually happen when a victim was attacked!

Good example. And of course none of this proves that the “Oh, murder” came from MJK.

I personally believe it did, but as the witnesses stated such cries were common in the court, there’s no way of knowing for sure.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Good example.

It helps to know what's possible, 'no use in putting forward ideas when they don't have much basis.

As I say, good post.

[Elamarna]

.
The knife used on Annie was not sharp, the cut to Liz's throat, more like a stab than a cut (being short but deep), was with a sharp knife.

Phillips actually described the wound

"The wound was inflicted by knife across the throat."

He was also asked if there was any indication that a pointed knife (as one would expect with a stab) he replied, no.
The cut was some 6 inches in length, and while it was deeper on one side of the neck, it did go from one jaw to the other.

Not sure saying like a stab is applicable.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

Sure. It's Old Bailey cases.

This is a search of cases 1880-1900 where the phrase "screamed murder" occurs. There are 28.

Likewise, you can search for "cried out murder" or "called out murder" or "shouted murder" or other combinations. The results clearly show that people used the actual word "murder" when crying for help in violent situations.

hi kattrup
welcome back! thanks for posting this. the cries of murder were heard by two witnesses and in fact a murder had taken place. whats the odds the two arent connected eventhough cries of murder were common. strengthened by the fact that the witnesses said it sounded like a women and that it was coming from marys place. the cries heard around four am are undoubtedly the cries of mary as the murderous attack commenced.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You might have raised a point I debated many years ago.

A "superficial cut" is one that only penetrates the skin but does not injure the deep muscles. So how is it that he then describes severer injury to the deeper muscles?

The two statements do not make sense, and Dr Brown is the only doctor that does not say how many cuts there were, he only describes how the overall wound appears to him.

Jon,

I wanted to revisit this. This is what Dr Brown had to say:

The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ½ below the lobe about 2½ inches behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear. The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side—the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed—the larynx was severed below the vocal chords. All the deep structures were severed to the bone the knife marking intervertebral cartilages—the sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.

It raises an interesting question, how do you cut 2.5 inches behind the ear when the victim is lying on the ground? Dr Brown specifically differentiates between below the lobe and behind the ear. Surely that part of the throat/neck would not be accessible to a knife (in the event of a victim lying on the ground). You could argue that Jack lifted Catherine's head and turned it to the side and assuming that is what happened and Jack rotated Catherine's head as he cut her throat while Catherine was lying on the ground, then there was no reason for the cut to be deepest at the left side of the neck which is what Dr Brown describes. In fact, Dr Phillips believed Annie was cut with her chin held up and we see an entirely different type of cut to the one Dr Brown describes (I'll come to that later).

The reason why modern day pathologists see the left hand side of the neck cut deepest (when a right handed person cuts left to right) is because that's the natural flow of the knife when a perpetrator is stood behind a victim.

We see a similar cut in Liz and Catherine, but: we don't with Annie.

In relation to Annie, Dr Phillips tells us this:

The throat was dissevered deeply; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck

The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand.

Dr Phillips describes an entirely different type of cut to that of Catherine and Liz. Yes, the incision begins on the left hand side, but there is no tailing off at the right hand side. There is no severed at the left hand side and just opened (in Catherine's case) and more superficial (in Liz's case) on the right hand side.

I think we may have Liz and Catherine cut from behind and Annie cut from the front.

[Wickerman]

It helps to know what's possible, 'no use in putting forward ideas when they don't have much basis.

As I say, good post.

We can find quite a few, as you might expect this is not the first time we have raised this topic. I searched the BNA at the time, but as I see I only kept one example in my files from 5 years ago.

[Fleetwood Mac]

We can find quite a few, as you might expect this is not the first time we have raised this topic. I searched the BNA at the time, but as I see I only kept one example in my files from 5 years ago.

It's been answered by Kattrup, Jon, and really we're getting off topic when discussing what 'murder' may mean.

You may be interested in post 56 though, which is more on topic. That post leaves aside what people thought may have happened and looks solely at the throat wounds. We see that Catherine and Liz had very similar throat wounds and Annie had a very different throat wound when compared with Catherine and Liz.

[Wickerman]

Jon,

I wanted to revisit this. This is what Dr Brown had to say:

The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ½ below the lobe about 2½ inches behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear. The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side—the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed—the larynx was severed below the vocal chords. All the deep structures were severed to the bone the knife marking intervertebral cartilages—the sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.

It raises an interesting question, how do you cut 2.5 inches behind the ear when the victim is lying on the ground? Dr Brown specifically differentiates between below the lobe and behind the ear. Surely that part of the throat/neck would not be accessible to a knife (in the event of a victim lying on the ground). You could argue that Jack lifted Catherine's head and turned it to the side and assuming that is what happened and Jack rotated Catherine's head as he cut her throat while Catherine was lying on the ground, then there was no reason for the cut to be deepest at the left side of the neck which is what Dr Brown describes. In fact, Dr Phillips believed Annie was cut with her chin held up and we see an entirely different type of cut to the one Dr Brown describes (I'll come to that later).

The reason why modern day pathologists see the left hand side of the neck cut deepest (when a right handed person cuts left to right) is because that's the natural flow of the knife when a perpetrator is stood behind a victim.

We see a similar cut in Liz and Catherine, but: we don't with Annie.

In relation to Annie, Dr Phillips tells us this:

The throat was dissevered deeply; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck

The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand.

Dr Phillips describes an entirely different type of cut to that of Catherine and Liz. Yes, the incision begins on the left hand side, but there is no tailing off at the right hand side. There is no severed at the left hand side and just opened (in Catherine's case) and more superficial (in Liz's case) on the right hand side.

I think we may have Liz and Catherine cut from behind and Annie cut from the front.

Actually FM, right or wrong, the scenario I see playing out is the killer suffocated or strangled both Annie & Kate, and from behind. In a case like this the body will go limp and slump to the ground in a sitting position, with their back resting against the killers legs. He holds the head and runs the knife around from left to right. This is how the knife is able to begin so far behind the left ear with Kate, and how with Annie the cut is taken completely around the neck in what looks like a spiral cut.
Annie had vertical scratches under her left ear, which I take to be her own nails in an attempt to get something tight from around her neck.
I don't believe their body's were flat on the ground at the time their throats were cut.

With Nichols her head was flat on the cobbles, she was on her back when her throat was cut. The pressure marks of his left hand on her cheek and jaw were visible as bruises to the doctors.

[Fleetwood Mac]

He holds the head and runs the knife around from left to right. This is how the knife is able to begin so far behind the left ear with Kate, and how with Annie the cut is taken completely around the neck in what looks like a spiral cut.

Why do we see an entirely different kind of wound with Annie?

Why do we see Liz's and Catherine's wound being very similar, i.e. deepest on the left hand side and tails off at the right hand side, severed on the left hand side but just open or superficial on the right hand side.

Annie's throat wound is entirely different.

The inference is that the position of Jack was similar when cutting Liz and Catherine, but much different when cutting Annie.