Throat Cuts

[Fleetwood Mac]

In this case we have three examples of women in threatening situations, two life threatening and they all cry out in, some way, even 'desperate' as reported in one case.

Which three women?

As a general rule it might be useful but can you be sure it applies in every case? Has every woman that has ever been threatened or attacked just sat there quietly?

It certainly is useful given that a clear majority of women report not being able to move or cry out, restrained or otherwise, due to freezing. The studies demonstrate that it doesn't apply in all scenarios, agreed.

As said, it's not a permanent response, it's the brain's immediate reaction, and so it would depend on how long Mary was alive after realising the urgent, dangerous threat.

Assuming Mary was only briefly aware, then studies suggest Mary's likely response was an involuntary one, driven by the brain's reaction, which rendered her unable to cry out.

And then we get to the 'murder' part, does this actually happen? do we have examples of women experiencing a life threatening assault shouting 'murder'?

[Aethelwulf]

Which three women?

1 - Woman (assumed Stride) thrown to ground by BS man. Even if that wasn't Stride, she was still a woman being attacked.

2 - Annie Farmer

Daily Telegraph 22nd Nov 1888 ALARMING OUTRAGE IN WHITECHAPEL

What has he done?' and she replied, 'He has cut my throat.' I asked for a light, and a woman brought a candle, for the room was very dark. I then saw that there were five or six wounds in the neck, which seemed to me to be gaping and at least 3in long

I brought him in about 6.30, and when I was half-asleep I felt a knife cross my throat, which woke me up, and I screamed

3. Ellen Bury

And then we get to the 'murder' part, does this actually happen? do we have examples of women experiencing a life threatening assault shouting 'murder'?

Not murder but I don't see why potentially seeing someone with a knife in your room means you wouldn't shout murder.

The closest comparion in many respects is the David Duncan statement of what he heard when Ellen Bury was being attacked. She was hit, strangled and then mutilated. She had on only her chemise so it's fair to assume that given it was February she was either in bed or about to get into bed. Presumably she saw Bury coming towards her with either his fists or some implement with which he hit her and screamed.

David Duncan – About three o’clock in the morning of Tuesday 5^th February I had occasion to get out of bed.

Lord Young – And while you were up did anything occur outside that attracted your attention?

David Duncan – Yes. I heard a woman scream three times in distress – desperate. I wakened Ann Johnston, calling her twice, and asked her if she had heard the screams, but she said "No".

Lord Young – Did the screaming stop?

David Duncan – At once.

Lord Young – Did you listen carefully for anymore screams?

David Duncan – Yes. I listened for half an hour or more.

Lord Young – No more screams were heard?

David Duncan – No.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Not murder but I don't see why potentially seeing someone with a knife in your room means you wouldn't shout murder.

I think we can only go on the experience of human behaviour, i.e. what human beings do in that situation.

In the event we cannot find examples of women shouting 'murder' when they have been attacked, then it must follow that Mary shouting 'murder' is an unlikely event.

Add in that studies show a clear majority of women freeze in that situation, unable to move or cry out due to the brain's instinctive reaction.

Then how likely is it that Mary shouted 'murder'?

I'd say extremely unlikely.

[Aethelwulf]

Add in that studies show a clear majority of women freeze in that situation, unable to move or cry out due to the brain's instinctive reaction.

Then how likely is it that Mary shouted 'murder'?

I'd say extremely unlikely.

I'd agree the study is clear on a majority freezing, but that 30% needs clarification. Also we're talking about 1888 - perhaps people did shout murder back then. Isn't one of the arguments against the murder cries being kelly that cries of murder were quite common around there? That sounds like it was a more common response as a general call for help perhaps.

Also, the case studies you have are for rape. Could there be a case of 'if i stay here and keep quiet he'll let me go' in those cases, as opposed to someone with a knife intent on murder, where you won't get away unless you do something? Perhaps the freeze scenario can be over-ridden in some cases?

[Fleetwood Mac]

people did shout murder back then. Isn't one of the arguments against the murder cries being kelly that cries of murder were quite common around there? That sounds like it was a more common response as a general call for help perhaps.

It would depend on the context. The statements tell us that when people heard 'murder', a murder wasn't actually taking place.

In fairness, it is recorded that people do sometimes shout something when attacked.

But, in the event we can't find just one example of somebody shouting 'murder' when attacked, from any period, including the Victorian era; then what does that suggest?

Also, the case studies you have are for rape. Could there be a case of 'if i stay here and keep quiet he'll let me go' in those cases, as opposed to someone with a knife intent on murder, where you won't get away unless you do something? Perhaps the freeze scenario can be over-ridden in some cases?

You are quite right in the sense that the brain's response is driven by survival.

Even when the assault seems inevitable, extreme survival responses can take over. These can be active (fight, flight) but more commonly passive (e.g. temporary paralysis, fainting or zoning out). These reactions are automatic. (source: Haskell, L. & Randall, M. (2019). The Impact of Trauma on Adult Sexual Assault Victims).

Based on that, we may find that at least some of Jack's victims fainted.

[Aethelwulf]

But, in the event we can't find just one example of somebody shouting 'murder' when attacked, from any period, including the Victorian era; then what does that suggest?

Has anyone looked and searched though? Even if nothing turned up all it means is that no one recorded it. It's getting a bit like Karl Popper and his swans. You can have theory that all swans are white and find millions of white swans, but you only need to find one black swan to show the theory is false.

Is it believable that Kelly froze? Yes
Is it believable that she shouted murder? Yes
From what we know is freezing more likely? Yes but 30% of women (that's potentially a big number depending on sample size) are not freezing.
Are there examples from 1888 and 1889 of women being attacked and calling out screaming? Yes

My simple view is that there was a murder that night. Cries of murder were heard at a time that wouldn't be inconsistent with ToD. Could that have been Kelly? 30% and the examples from 1888/89 say yes.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Has anyone looked and searched though? Even if nothing turned up all it means is that no one recorded it. It's getting a bit like Karl Popper and his swans. You can have theory that all swans are white and find millions of white swans, but you only need to find one black swan to show the theory is false.

We know from experience that black swans exist. Where is the demonstrable experience of people shouting 'murder' when attacked?

Is it believable that Kelly froze? Yes
Is it believable that she shouted murder? Yes
From what we know is freezing more likely? Yes but 30% of women (that's potentially a big number depending on sample size) are not freezing.
Are there examples from 1888 and 1889 of women being attacked and calling out screaming? Yes

My simple view is that there was a murder that night. Cries of murder were heard at a time that wouldn't be inconsistent with ToD. Could that have been Kelly? 30% and the examples from 1888/89 say yes.

That's fine. Everyone draws their own conclusion based on the available information.

I'd make a distinction between 'could have' and probable, however.

In the end we're trying to come up with a likely scenario here, as opposed to a possibility however unlikely.

In the event we understand that the most common response when a woman is attacked, both at the initial stage and when the attack appears inevitable, is not to fight or shout or cry.

And then we add in that we cannot come up with just one instance of someone shouting 'murder' when attacked, in any age, including the Victorian era. I've looked for ages, I'm sure others have as well.

Then while we cannot prove Mary didn't shout 'murder', it is unlikely. That is what the experience of human behaviour is telling us, both in terms of the study of women's reactions when in that situation and the complete lack of witness statements in any case that include the shout of 'murder' when someone is attacked.

That's the reasonable conclusion in terms of presenting that which is most likely.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't think that Mary cried out "murder" as she was being attacked either, although I wouldn't agree with your alternative.

Empirical studies strongly ebb towards women freezing in that situation, in the immediate anyway.

It's a response that is hard wired and is automatic in the face of a danger, the brain is signaled to inhibit movement.

In fact, in the immediate, the brain is hard wired to not scream let alone shout murder.

It is evolutionary factors which underpin the response to a serious assault as opposed to what we think should happen when we reason it out.

What we do have in this situation is historical data that indicates that the phrase was not unheard of during that period, and was commonly used in the same way that "Bloody Hell" could be used today. To indicate annoyance. When coupled with the fact that the 2 women heard the call "as if at the door", and "as if from the court", it would seem the call was not made while someone in the courtyard was in their room with the door closed. I suggest that neither women would have described it as being from the court, or at the door, unless the phrase was issued in the courtyard. Which is why I suggest it may be Mary uttering annoyance while at her open door. At being woken by someone.

[Michael W Richards]

not really sure what you're going on about to be honest mike. You get all tetchy suggesting Mary was slashed with the sheet there, which is what Abby said and I agreed. Once Mary was killed what was he doing? probs moving about the room very silently cutting. Why is that 'all this'. If Kelly manged to get her arms up to hold him off and get those cuts I think she would have made a lot more noise. How do you know the bed was creaky? If beds were creaky why would it be out of the ordinary if anyone heard.
save you breath mikey i can see the way you operate with your juvenile antics with herlock on the stride thread.

There is no indication that Mary was defending herself immediately after the call was heard, in fact no additional noise was heard. As I reminded you. So she may have been first cut after some time had elapsed and Mary had begun to doze again, as had Prater. Elizabeth stated she could hear when Mary moved things about, so if there had been noise of any kind from that room immediately after the call was heard, Prater would have heard it.

This is relevant when you suggest that the cry was actually the start of Marys murder, without any noise being created, It appears that is incorrect. Also when you factor in common useage in the day of that phrase, it doesnt lead to a conclusion it was used literally.

What happens when someone suggests something that is contrary to the known, trusted, evidence? They are reminded of that evidence by someone else who doesnt want misrepresentation of the facts used here. Like you, and your suggestion the cry was the beginning of the murder. Almost certainly, it wasnt.

[Aethelwulf]

We know from experience that black swans exist. Where is the demonstrable experience of people shouting 'murder' when attacked?

I was more meaning how can you know for certain no one shouted murder, ever, when being attacked? We know cries of murder were apparently common there, perhaps for non fatal attacks, so it was a phrase in common use, so it isn't much of a stretch to think it could happen and not recorded or even heard for that matter. What happens and is heard and recorded is only going to be a fraction of what actually happened.

In the event we understand that the most common response when a woman is attacked, both at the initial stage and when the attack appears inevitable, is not to fight or shout or cry.

But on the one hand you have a modern study which is fine, on the other hand you have evidence from the time of women being assaulted and calling out. In the case of Bury she screamed out desperate but was killed, in the case of Farmer she not only screamed but according to witnesses must have landed a blow as he was scratched and bleeding. Stride(?) being thrown to the ground and calling out, also the 'no' from Hanbury Street if people think that was Chapman.

[Fleetwood Mac]

What we do have in this situation is historical data that indicates that the phrase was not unheard of during that period, and was commonly used in the same way that "Bloody Hell" could be used today. To indicate annoyance. When coupled with the fact that the 2 women heard the call "as if at the door", and "as if from the court", it would seem the call was not made while someone in the courtyard was in their room with the door closed. I suggest that neither women would have described it as being from the court, or at the door, unless the phrase was issued in the courtyard. Which is why I suggest it may be Mary uttering annoyance while at her open door. At being woken by someone.

We still use the term up here, Michael.

When something or someone is difficult it/he/she is either 'torture' or 'murder'.

[Aethelwulf]

There is no indication that Mary was defending herself immediately after the call was heard, in fact no additional noise was heard. As I reminded you. So she may have been first cut after some time had elapsed and Mary had begun to doze again, as had Prater. Elizabeth stated she could hear when Mary moved things about, so if there had been noise of any kind from that room immediately after the call was heard, Prater would have heard it.

This is relevant when you suggest that the cry was actually the start of Marys murder, without any noise being created, It appears that is incorrect. Also when you factor in common useage in the day of that phrase, it doesnt lead to a conclusion it was used literally.

What happens when someone suggests something that is contrary to the known, trusted, evidence? They are reminded of that evidence by someone else who doesnt want misrepresentation of the facts used here. Like you, and your suggestion the cry was the beginning of the murder. Almost certainly, it wasnt.

What makes your argument a load of rubbish is that you are talking like you were there and know exactly what happended and can therefore rule out all options that don't fit with your theory. You do this every day on the Stride thread. You take yourself way to seriously mike. Just have a nice cuppa, sit down and look out yon window for a bit. You need to stop being so condescending mike, using phrases like 'want misrepresentation of the facts used here. Like you' just mark you out as someone with a heavy agenda. What am i saying? Cries of murder at a time consistent with the murder. Bloody hell that is controversial.

[Wickerman]

No, that wasn't in my mind.

Dr Phillips said this in relation to Annie:

I noticed that the incision of the skin was jagged, and reached right round the neck.

And this in relation to Liz:

On neck, from left to right, there is a clean cut incision six inches in length; incision commencing two and a half inches in a straight line

With the OP in mind and that which modern day pathologists expect to see in a cut depending on where the attacker is positioned, then the jagged incision may indicate a cut from in front and the clean incision may indicate a cut from behind.

As far as I can tell, Dr Lewellyn and Dr Brown do not differentiate between the two in their assessment of 'jagged' or 'clean' incision, based on the inquest testimony and post-mortem reports.

What might have seemed like a dumb question did have a point. As you know the pig is used by authorities as the best substitute for replicating wounds and testing weapons. In butchering when we cut into a pig if the knife is blunt the skin ripples up in front of the blade and it makes the cutting harder to accomplish. If you push (or pull) your way through regardless, the end results is a jagged wound due to the ripples, or folds of skin.
Whereas with a sharp blade the cut is straight and even like cutting through butter.
This is how I had interpreted Phillips's description in that quote you provided.

The knife used on Annie was not sharp, the cut to Liz's throat, more like a stab than a cut (being short but deep), was with a sharp knife.

[Kattrup]

And then we add in that we cannot come up with just one instance of someone shouting 'murder' when attacked, in any age, including the Victorian era. I've looked for ages, I'm sure others have as well.

Then while we cannot prove Mary didn't shout 'murder', it is unlikely. That is what the experience of human behaviour is telling us, both in terms of the study of women's reactions when in that situation and the complete lack of witness statements in any case that include the shout of 'murder' when someone is attacked.

Hello.

I noticed this exchange about the cry of “murder” and would just like to add that people being attacked did, in fact, shout out the word “murder”.

I have looked and it is not difficult to find examples of this.
1881:

I heard a noise and ran into the passage to look for the gentleman; I saw him on the ground in blood; I screamed "Murder"—I saw one man kick him and run away

1883:

as soon as I opened the door I screamed "Murder!" and "Police!" because I had seen the prisoner inside

1887:

I struggled to get up, and held a person who was kicking me, not the prisoner—my wife screamed "Murder!" and "Police!"

1890:

I seized a chair and broke the whole of the window out, and screamed, "Murder" and "Police"

[Wickerman]

That's because we're reasoning it out and assuming a voluntary response.

Freezing in urgent, dangerous situations is an involuntarily response as opposed to a choice, driven by evolutionary instincts. It happens in all animals, including humans. Studies have demonstrated that severe, urgent threats, like assault or physical restraint, trigger a freeze response involving fixed posture (tonic immobility) or loss of muscle tone (collapsed immobility). We are unable to make voluntary actions during that process. 'Think a rabbit caught in headlights. It prevents a victim from actively resisting.

It's not a permanent response, it's the brain's initial reaction. In the event Mary was aware of an urgent situation, and she was murdered seconds after that, then studies of surviving victims and of neurology tell us that there's a very good chance Mary froze and did nothing, involuntarily borne of the brain's natural reaction to an urgent threat.

I have no issue with the above proposal, my concern is that the feeble cry of Liz (not very loud), or the "Oh, no", like a startled response from Annie, may not be the response to seeing a knife, or the belief a murder was about to take place.
In the case of Liz it appears she had been thrown down, perhaps landing on her knees on the cobbles, so she cried or yelped, more as a protest against the physical assault.

I see the "oh, no" from Annie as a reaction to being handled roughly, not that she wasn't used to such treatment, but she will still verbally object.
There is only the cry in Millers Court that can be tied directly to the murder, so this example for me stands alone.
As we do not know what the sequence of events was in her last brief moments, it is hard to know what she was reacting to. Did she see him pull a knife, or pull a long cord from his pocket, or make a grab for her throat?

I do agree that the client was on the bed with her, but he can't do much lying down. So, he had to raise himself up on his knees to be in a position to exert some degree of force, and it is at that point I think she realized she was in trouble. Whatever it was he did next with his hands is what prompted the "oh, murder" from her mouth...