Was Annie Austin a Ripper Victim?

[MrBarnett]

Rob Clack found this. It contains the photos the sketches in the previous article were presumably taken from.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/victoriana/the-east-end-of-london/25673-wickedest-street-in-london-1901-rob-clack#post386442

[Azarna]

So we're supposed to believe a serial killer who murdered five women in the Whitechapel area with a random selection of victims, managed to select four women who lived close enough to one another, for their lodgings to be captured in a single photograph. Quite the coincidence. Almost unbelievable.

"Unfortunates" like the victims moved from doss house to doss house, quite frequently. And each doss house could sleep a lot of people at a time (far more than they were SUPPOSED to).

So the odds of each woman having slept in one of the pictured doss houses AT SOME TIME in their often many years on the streets, would surely not be all that high.

[MrBarnett]

"Unfortunates" like the victims moved from doss house to doss house, quite frequently. And each doss house could sleep a lot of people at a time (far more than they were SUPPOSED to).

So the odds of each woman having slept in one of the pictured doss houses AT SOME TIME in their often many years on the streets, would surely not be all that high.

Hi Az,

You are right. There were a handful of really dodgy streets in Spitalfields where the destitute congregated. Dorset Street was obviously one, Flower and Dean Street, Thrawl Street and George Street were similar and many of the WM victims had connections to those streets too.

Gary

[Scott Nelson]

John McCarthy (b. Dieppe, France) is listed as a "Grocer" at 27 Dorset St. in the 1891 census. So is a younger brother, Daniel McCarthy, also at #27. They owned the business, but not the premises (John was likely the principal business owner). A third McCarthy at #27, also named John, was a "General Shop Keeper", born in Spitalfields. He was probably the one who ran the business, and likely collected the rents. Miller's Court was not a group of lodging houses like the well-to-do John McCarthy owned elsewhere in Dorset St. Miller's Court consisted of tenement housing (apartment rooms). This shop keeper John, I contend, was Mary Kelly's landlord and the one who appeared at her inquest, not the entrepreneurial fight-promoter and charity man and lodging house owner.

So there were a couple of business owners at #27, John McCarthy and Daniel, and a shop keeper/landlord named John McCarthy (who had a wife named Mary, and a son, George).

The shop keeper McCarthy ran the grocers from the ground floor of #27, a three-floor building, and probably lived above it. Rented rooms were behind the grocers shop in the court. The second and third floors wouldn't have had more than one or two rooms each. Where did the other McCarthys live?

This is three years after the Kelly murder, so may not reflect the census information in 1891. So why is the business owner, John McCarthy, his wife Elizabeth and their four (recorded at the time) children listed as residing at #27? Information was likely given to the enumerator by one of the other McCarthys that this McCarthy was the principal business owner, so the enumerator recorded the family as resident there.

Question: If someone as well-off as the John McCarthy who owned several lodging houses, and likely owned other businesses as well, could afford to live anywhere but on Dorest Street with his family, would he?

[MrBarnett]

John McCarthy (b. Dieppe, France) is listed as a "Grocer" at 27 Dorset St. in the 1891 census. So is a younger brother, Daniel McCarthy, also at #27. They owned the business, but not the premises (John was likely the principal business owner). A third McCarthy at #27, also named John, was a "General Shop Keeper", born in Spitalfields. He was probably the one who ran the business, and likely collected the rents. Miller's Court was not a group of lodging houses like the well-to-do John McCarthy owned elsewhere in Dorset St. Miller's Court consisted of tenement housing (apartment rooms). This shop keeper John, I contend, was Mary Kelly's landlord and the one who appeared at her inquest, not the entrepreneurial fight-promoter and charity man and lodging house owner.

So there were a couple of business owners at #27, John McCarthy and Daniel, and a shop keeper/landlord named John McCarthy (who had a wife named Mary, and a son, George).

The shop keeper McCarthy ran the grocers from the ground floor of #27, a three-floor building, and probably lived above it. Rented rooms were behind the grocers shop in the court. The second and third floors wouldn't have had more than one or two rooms each. Where did the other McCarthys live?

This is three years after the Kelly murder, so may not reflect the census information in 1891. So why is the business owner, John McCarthy, his wife Elizabeth and their four (recorded at the time) children listed as residing at #27? Information was likely given to the enumerator by one of the other McCarthys that this McCarthy was the principal business owner, so the enumerator recorded the family as resident there.

Question: If someone as well-off as the John McCarthy who owned several lodging houses, and likely owned other businesses as well, could afford to live anywhere but on Dorest Street with his family, would he?

Hilarious!

[The Macdonald Triad]

Hilarious!

How so? Don't make me make popcorn lol. I do appreciate your links, Barnett. And everyone contributing. I remember more this way. I'm still surprised by your soft words regarding Maher. "Minder." Babysitter with a gun and knife? We can quibble over McCarthy was a bully or not but I only arrived at my conclusion because of you. The boxing underworld of the East End is notorious. Again thanks to your info. Ching Ghook was very interesting but nothing like Guv'nor McCarthy.

[drstrange169]

>>McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.<<

Not to mention his organisation of illegal boxing matches and perhaps the gambling therein involved.

[The Macdonald Triad]

>>McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.<<

Not to mention his organisation of illegal boxing matches and perhaps the gambling therein involved.

Exactly. McCarthy was the template of a philanthropist gangster. Not hating BTW.

[MrBarnett]

>>McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.<<

Not to mention his organisation of illegal boxing matches and perhaps the gambling therein involved.

‘Matches’ plural?

Tell me more.

[MrBarnett]

How so? Don't make me make popcorn lol. I do appreciate your links, Barnett. And everyone contributing. I remember more this way. I'm still surprised by your soft words regarding Maher. "Minder." Babysitter with a gun and knife? We can quibble over McCarthy was a bully or not but I only arrived at my conclusion because of you. The boxing underworld of the East End is notorious. Again thanks to your info. Ching Ghook was very interesting but nothing like Guv'nor McCarthy.

A ‘minder’ is a personal bodyguard. That seems to have been Maher’s role in respect of Ann McCarthy, a widow running businesses in a rough area of London. He claimed that Daniel McCarthy had requested he looked after Ann in his will, but there is no such request in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iq1bejGbGPc

[MrBarnett]

‘Double’ doss houses were often compared to brothels, but that wasn’t their primary function. The people who ran them didn’t care whether the couples who used them were legally married, in stable relationships, or enjoying one night stands with or without a financial incentive.

[MrBarnett]

Exactly. McCarthy was the template of a philanthropist gangster. Not hating BTW.

In what way? There is evidence of McCarthy’s philanthropy. What criminal activity do you imagine he was involved in?

[MrBarnett]

‘Matches’ plural?

Tell me more.

And perhaps you could explain how these matches (plural) were illegal.

[seanr]

‘Matches’ plural?

Tell me more.

Henry Lee and Jack McCarthy will give their NINTH Grand Boxing Entertainment. Tickets to be obtained of Jack McCarthy, 27 Dorset Street, Spitalfields.

Sporting Life - Thursday 09 February 1899:



But maybe this was the other John McCarthy.

[MrBarnett]

Henry Lee and Jack McCarthy will give their NINTH Grand Boxing Entertainment. Tickets to be obtained of Jack McCarthy, 27 Dorset Street, Spitalfields.

Sporting Life - Thursday 09 February 1899:



But maybe this was the other John McCarthy.

JM Jun was of course ‘Steve’ McCarthy. He followed in his father’s footsteps in his involvement in boxing. The JM selling the tickets from 27, Dorset Street was presumably his father, who was still living there in 1901.